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4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

ChainedLupine
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 262 days ago) edited 2 years 257 days ago

United States US

Whee! I'm having trouble with piracy, in particular with Chinese flash game portals.

Originally my game was released as a Kongregate.com exclusive. Within hours, my game was up on 7k7k.com with the sitelocking code stripped. The game then proceeded to generate over 2 million hits in the next 30 days, and how much revenue did I get? Zero. So a month later and I released a public, viral version using Mochiads. A few days pass...

Today I check my analytic reports. Tons of hits from a site called 4399.com, and zero Mochi impressions. It seems like 4399.com has stepped up to the plate this time. I'm getting hits from this URL: Pirated version of Legend of Kalevala

Once again I am being ripped off.

Worse, 4399.com has both my original Kong-exclusive hacked version (which they called "Legend of the Animal") AND this version.

For comparison, here is a site which shows my game without stripping the ads and allowing external links: Legend of Kalevala on Mochigames

If you're quick you might notice the game pops up a message about "And now a word from our sponsors..." which then almost immediately disappears. This was a second-level protective mechanism in case someone had ripped the Live Update encrypted SWF and tried to use it manually. To have it bypass the Mochiads completely, even with the raw SWF, means that deliberate removal of the Mochi API was done.

I used about every reasonable protective method I could think of; SecureSWF, several levels of indirection, blacklists (which 4399.com wasn't on, BTW).

Is there anything I can do about this? LoK is purely supported by its in-game ads, and it really is annoying that first 7k7k.com and now 4399.com would host stolen copies of my game and prevent me from getting any revenue from it in China.

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Venks
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 262 days ago) edited 2 years 262 days ago

Owch that sounds pretty terrible. Please keep us updated how this turns out.

I've had my game pirated onto those same sights, but my games weren't generating any traffic anyways so I just didn't care. Mine were also taken off of Kongregate.

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nmz502
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 262 days ago)

United States US

Sorry, buddy :(. I hope it turns out alright.

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Rowkilla
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Portugal PT

Yea those portals are infamous for stealing/decompiling games, sadly I doubt there's anything you can do about it.

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GamingAllNight
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

SUE THEM. Like any company / person would. Most lawyers, especially since they are so "big" they are deff making money, that is in the online business will be more than glad to sue them for a portion of the share. Not only that, but than we can get them shut down, the owners bankrupt and than no1 will have problems!

TA DA - solution.

I would do it, but I personally can't sue them for not having any motive against them, though each and every person on this site probably will or has a game that has been ripped and stolen on their site - so just sue them!

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

ParaLogic
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Netherlands NL

Ha! Yeah, sue a Chinese company. Good luck! I seriously hope someone will in fact take a massive bone out of their existence, though I'm afraid this isn't possible in the near future due to the Chinese law system, which makes it nearly impossible to sue them.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

gio-m
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

That sucks. Not that my games are good enough that any one would want to steal them but I thought of this crazy idea that just might work to protect my games from Chines pirates. I was thinking of adding a Free Tibet logo somewhere in my game or the picture of the Tiananmen square tank guy. I know this sounds stupid but i am hoping that i would scare off most Chines sites.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

wm
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Are there any symbols that you can't legally publish in China?

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

nmz502
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago) edited 2 years 261 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by gio-m I was thinking of adding a Free Tibet logo somewhere in my game or the picture of the Tiananmen square tank guy. I know this sounds stupid but i am hoping that i would scare off most Chines sites.

That's actually a really good idea.

You could even use the phrase "I support Tibet, Chinese Jasmine Uprisings and the Tienanmen square protests."

That ought to shut down the pirates internet connection XD.

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GamingAllNight
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

International copyright laws don't exist in China? :(

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audrey85
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

China CN

in fact one big portal crack your game.we have nothing to do. copyright laws just a joke. Chinese market special,no sponsors,they want free and no ads game. One method your can be their developer ,make chinese version use their API.

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YWP
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago) edited 2 years 261 days ago

Let's not do anything that might put somebody into a politcal prison for who knows how long. Probably wouldn't look too good on Mochi either.

Thankful People: Hu JintaoLi ChangchunWen Jiabao
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ChainedLupine
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Thanks for the comments, but let's be clear. I'm not out to piss off Chinese people OR alienate the Chinese market.

Clearly, my game is liked on these sites.

What my problem is, that 7k7k.com and 4399.com, both well known and large Flash portal sites, have targeted my game. Whether they did the pirating themselves or whether they are just complacent in the act after the fact... Either way, they're still distributing the game.

(I suspect that they HAVE been directly involved, though, because I saw hits to my game from temporary URLs that no longer work. And, as of when I looked at the data last night, the only copy of my game which was ad-free was coming from a 4399.com URL.)

I'm looking for advice on how to solve this. Has anyone had any luck contacting these sites and getting their games pulled? If so, who did you talk to? I've been to both sites and I don't see any form of "Report this game" button, but I don't speak any dialect of Chinese. I'm just relying upon Google Translate (which of course won't translate images).

Also, legal solutions are outside of my possibility, because A) I don't live in China nor do I have a company that operates in China, so I can't exactly get involved in their local legal system, and B) I don't have the money to wage complex lawsuits from halfway across the world.

I'd like to hear how people have dealt with this before, because right now my experience tells me I shouldn't even bother trying to cater the Chinese market. Why bother? Some popular portal will pirate my game anyway. Surely, there is another way to approach this?

I'm thrilled to know that millions would love to play my game but are they doing so at the expense of turning yet another Flash game developer permanently against them?

One method your can be their developer ,make chinese version use their API.

vwp: I've heard this before. If these portal sites want a free and no ad version of my game then I am sorry, they cannot just steal my game and turn it into one without my permission and expect me to want to do business with them in the future. If this is considered normal operating procedure in this market, then how can anyone take them seriously globally? I know that having to deal with this is negatively impacting any future decisions I might have if I were to be approached by a Chinese company about distribution rights in China.

Which, in fact, I was approached by one. I asked them about dealing with 7k7k, which they mentioned as a business partner. Their reply was vague and didn't seem to indicate that anything would be done unless I agreed to work with them on an exclusive distribution deal.

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audrey85
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

China CN

Has anyone had any luck contacting these sites and getting their games pulled? If so, who did you talk to?

I am very disappointed tell you i can do it,talk to them,but you must make their API version replace it if your wish. maybe only way!Of course, you can also give up!

BTW: i am looking for some friends,good experience at foreign market. my new game will be Complete.

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Pedja
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Serbia RS

Write them and say you'll file an dmca complaint. It worked for me (other websites were in question, but one was Chinese)

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ChainedLupine
Aug 02, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by audrey85 I am very disappointed tell you i can do it,talk to them,but you must make their API version replace it if your wish. maybe only way!Of course, you can also give up!

Why must I replace it? I want to contact them to ask them to take the game down. They can honor my wish and take down the hacked copy (with the option to put up my original version that serves Mochi ads), or they can ignore my request. Or if they want to talk to me about implementing their API and even perhaps exclusive distribute deals, then OK, but first they should stop hosting the version of my game with the Mochi ads stripped out.

I consider that piracy.

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audrey85
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

China CN

。。。you do not know Chinese market. I am Chinese and i use their API get revenue, i tell you the true fact you can believe or not,Mochi Chinese market not successful. Your ideas i have no word. you can wait for that day come ture. good luck!

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ParaLogic
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Netherlands NL

It's the Chinese market that has to change. They are stealing from developers and the only solution is that they simply stop stealing, not that the developer has to integrate some Chine API to get revenue.

THEY ARE STEALING, that's unacceptable.

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Pedja
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Serbia RS

ahm...

Originally posted by pedja Write them and say you'll file an dmca complaint. It worked for me (other websites were in question, but one was Chinese)

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85play
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago) edited 2 years 261 days ago

They steal and they've even coded engines to steal on the fly... It's a real industry.

Each game we sponsor and release on site to list it exclusively for a few days are listed on chinese websites 2 days after. Of course they block outgoing links most of the time... Good luck ChainedLupine, as many here I think there is absolutely no fix for this! (no possible lawsuit, no way to discuss with most of those websites, no way to remove your game from 300 websites... And when your goal is to get a game no one has listed yet it's anyway too late to act afterward)

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by ywp Let's not do anything that might put somebody into a politcal prison for who knows how long. Probably wouldn't look too good on Mochi either.

Thankful People: Hu JintaoLi ChangchunWen Jiabao

People who pirates 100,000's of games deserve that.

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gio-m
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by ywp Let's not do anything that might put somebody into a politcal prison for who knows how long. Probably wouldn't look too good on Mochi either.

I don’t want to see any one go to jail either but what defense do we have. I think guerilla tactics are the only option we have left. If they don’t want to play fair they why should we.

And. Even Mochi has given up on trying to work with the Chinese market (when it comes to integrating none Chinese games to the Chinese market).

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

Cardin
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Singapore SG

At the bottom (footer) they said if mailed, they would take down copyrighted works in 3 working days. Have you tried this email?

举报邮箱:jubao@4399.com

Hope you get your game successfully taken down or at least properly accredited.. :@

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

ParaLogic
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Netherlands NL

Yeah great. They hack a game, put it on their frontpage and when you mail them, the game disappears to page 150 in proper working condition.

They must be really social people to take down copyrighted work within 3 working days... Copyrighted work they hacked and stole in the first place.

Those Chinese portals really piss me off. For my future games it's pretty simple: If they don't play nice, I won't play nice. That way, at least I will have some laughs out of it myself.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

YWP
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Originally posted by gio-m

I don’t want to see any one go to jail either but what defense do we have. I think guerilla tactics are the only option we have left. If they don’t want to play fair they why should we.

Do what you can, but weigh the consequences. Including a phrase like "Falun Gong for the win" or some such may not actually send anyone to the slammer, but it's sure to stir the pot and put your company in the thick of it, as far as China is concerned. The trick is targeting the culprit without pissing everybody else off. You offer a solution, nonetheless, and that's more than I've got at the moment. Encryption, blacklists, IP banning... We need a better mousetrap.

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Crazy Ninja
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 261 days ago)

Originally posted by ParaLogic Yeah great. They hack a game, put it on their frontpage and when you mail them, the game disappears to page 150 in proper working condition.

They must be really social people to take down copyrighted work within 3 working days... Copyrighted work they hacked and stole in the first place.

Those Chinese portals really piss me off. For my future games it's pretty simple: If they don't play nice, I won't play nice. That way, at least I will have some laughs out of it myself.

So what is the best way to "not play nice" ?

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ParaLogic
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

Netherlands NL

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja So what is the best way to "not play nice" ?

Still thinking about that. Though in my next 2 games it won't be too disrespectful because they are sponsored and I don't want to hurt the sponsors name in China.

But I'll do anything in my power to make sure the games won't work on their portals if the links are blocked.

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Crazy Ninja
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

@Paralogic I would sure like to know what methods you end up using because I need ideas for my upcoming game. If you wouldn't mind sharing by PM (or IM ) I would be most grateful. So far everything I can think of can be easily stripped out.

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

@Crazy Ninja. I'm PMing you a link to a topic on FGL that you might find interesting. Really helpful stuff.

Don't forget to use the "secret phrases" that have been posted.

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85play
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

Some big chinese arcades using Adsense and other well known networks... Maybe you could report them but this will just make new ennemies and earn you nothing good, I don't think this might stop them from stealing.

Or at least inform thiefs before going this way, like writing in big on preloader : "If you steal this game we will report your website and have your publishers account closed." like this you're not a starting a war, you're just playing the game you've clearly defined.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

ChainedLupine
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by pedja Write them and say you'll file an dmca complaint. It worked for me (other websites were in question, but one was Chinese)

The DMCA is an American law and shouldn't have jurisdiction in China. Unless this has changed or there is something I am unaware of? If it does, and 4399.com files a counter-claim, then how do I take a Chinese company to court? I'm not sure this is a wise course for me to take.

Back when the site-locking was defeated on my game, I found that copy on other portal sites, all around the world. I asked politely to have it removed and in every case that request was honored. I want to send the same request to 7k7k/4399 and let them have a chance to take down my game. Even if they stole my game in the first place (and I have analytical data to support that conclusion).

If they don't care, then there isn't a thing I can do about it, except try let others know what happened to me.

ParaLogic is right. My game wasn't stolen in a physical sense of the term, but I am receiving no ad revenue. 4399.com (and 7k7k.com) is stealing by receiving money from the ads they serve in place of mine, using my game as a lure to get people to their site, whether they mean to or not. I'm a first-time Flash game developer and 2 million plays is a LOT to me. That's not a ton of money from the low eCPM rates, but it would be enough for me to fund making more, bigger and better games.

Nobody would sponsor my game when I offered it because I was an unknown with zero history, and there wasn't any proof that my game would succeed. But it did (however small a success that was), and now I am trying to monetize that success just enough to fund further projects.

I never expected my game to be popular on China Flash portal sites. Maybe two million plays isn't "popular" there, perhaps every game gets that number of hits. But every time I went to visit the 7k7k.com site over the course of two weeks, my game was on their front page. 7k7k.com is huge, with tons of games. Surely that is quite an accomplishment -- I only received front page feature on Kongregate.com for just for a weekend!

As for how to deter future theft without making such blatant politically incorrect gestures, that is a topic all of its own. I've heard some good suggestions, but I don't like many of them. The risk of sending out a broken-by-design game that is later patched into a working copy is asking to make legitimate sponsors/portals mad.

One thing I will suggest: Analytics are your friend. You might not be able to stop anyone from copying your game with a good home-phone system, but you will at least know what is happening and can alert others.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by 85play Some big chinese arcades using Adsense and other well known networks... Maybe you could report them but this will just make new ennemies and earn you nothing good, I don't think this might stop them from stealing.

Or at least inform thiefs before going this way, like writing in big on preloader : "If you steal this game we will report your website and have your publishers account closed." like this you're not a starting a war, you're just playing the game you've clearly defined.

I now utilize an in-game blacklist, which politely tells people not to support sites that are known pirates. I also give a similar message if you click on an outbound link and that fails. My original version of the game didn't do this... I wasn't quite prepared for my game to be pirated in just 48 hours after release. I know better now.

4399.com wasn't on the blacklist because, from I gathered, Mochi had deals with 4399.com. Or did in the past. Is that no longer the case? Perhaps I should contact Mochi support, then.

Your comment that this is an automated industry is intriguing. Other than having Mochi stripped out, my game seems to be intact in all other ways. I noticed that my analytical system wasn't touched, but the Mochi system was complete lobotomized. But the analytical code is heavily obfuscated as is the rest of the game code, and the Mochi code wasn't (due to the way Mochi works). Is it a case of these sites merely run some pre-processed set of scripts on a game that target certain things, such as removing SecureSWF site-locking and replacing the Mochi libraries with dummy versions?

I am under no illusion that my SWF can be %100 protected with magical anti-theft systems. But the fact that they use common methods would imply that if it were possible to make your game just difficult enough to decrypt/modify, then you would not be considered a likely target.

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wm
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

This is a big problem. It's only going to take one bad Chinese sponsor account on FGL to start stealing and publishing games before they're even branded. I don't feel safe putting my game in limited release for sponsor viewing now.

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

I suppose you should lock your game in a bankvault and tell sponsors they can see once they've sponsored it.

ADD: FGL is pretty picky about who they let be sponsors on their site.

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wm
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

I get the impression that anybody with $500 can be a sponsor.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

egdcltd
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Or with nothing for game shop only sponsors. And if the dev isn't careful about sponsor viewing, GS sponsors can see pre-release games.

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gio-m
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by ywp The trick is targeting the culprit without pissing everybody else off.

I will admit that my defense idea is over the top. I don't think that i am going to go that far at first. Maybe start with logos that say "Think Free" or "Speak Free". Something in that ball park. Not blatantly controversial but just enough to make them nervous.

Originally posted by ChainedLupine I am under no illusion that my SWF can be %100 protected with magical anti-theft systems.

Unfortunately as developers that is just the reality of it. Any time we post a game there is always the risk that it will be stolen.

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Rowkilla
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

Portugal PT

Well they decompile games so it's safe to assume that any potentially dangerous text/images will be removed before they put it live on their website.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by nmz502 I suppose you should lock your game in a bankvault and tell sponsors they can see once they've sponsored it.

ADD: FGL is pretty picky about who they let be sponsors on their site.

The company in China that contacted me about exclusive distribution rights is an FGL approved sponsor. I'm not implying that this sponsor has pirated games or will in the future, but they admitted to being business partners with 7k7k.com. And I am pretty sure it was 7k7k.com that stripped out the site-locking in LoK back when it was exclusive for just Kongregate.com. When I asked them to contact 7k7k on my behalf to get the pirated copy removed, they said they would. The pirated copy remained on the website and I heard nothing else from this sponsor, after being told they were unable to help me further. So make of that as you will.

I agree that you can't just wall yourself in and set the moat aflame. I want sponsors to see my game, and ultimately I want people to play it.

LoK is ad supported. It has never been sponsored. The only money I receive is from advertisements. You aren't charged to play the game and you can freely distribute it -- as long as you don't remove or block my advertisement, or otherwise mangle the game.

I know it's easy to just write off the Chinese market and say "piracy happens", but I am trying to explore options and wanted advice. I know what my options are right now; Spend more time writing elaborate protective measures and further building walls around myself and my game, or just ignore it and try to pursue other sources of revenue.

Neither is very appealing, I would like to meet the Chinese market halfway in some manner. And not in the way of "oops we stole your game/hosted a stolen copy but now we're willing to give you business after we received a bunch of ad impressions that you'll never see a cent of!"

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wm
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by Rowkilla Well they decompile games so it's safe to assume that any potentially dangerous text/images will be removed before >they put it live on their website.

They'll have trouble decompiling the troublesome assets out of my latest game, Free Tibet Love Google Anti-Censorship Challenge Fighter IV.

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wm
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

Edit: Ignore this post. I posted instead of editing.

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earthwind
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

Canada CA

Originally posted by nmz502 @Crazy Ninja. I'm PMing you a link to a topic on FGL that you might find interesting. Really helpful stuff.

Don't forget to use the "secret phrases" that have been posted.

@ nmz502 - Can you send the link to me as well, or post it. Thanks.

@ChainedLupine - I had a game I sponsored hacked by one of those sites, they removed the ads and some of the links, but couldn't get them all out for some reason. Anyways, I had to spend day after day checking new sources of domains hosting it and sending out many emails getting them to take it down and put up the legal version. Most sites did.

Would be nice if when they hacked it they would at least site-lock it to their own site so all the other sites won't pickup the cracked one... Would be better if they just didn't hack it in the first place obviously!

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ChainedLupine
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

@ChainedLupine - I had a game I sponsored hacked by one of those sites, they removed the ads and some of the links, but couldn't get them all out for some reason. Anyways, I had to spend day after day checking new sources of domains hosting it and sending out many emails getting them to take it down and put up the legal version. Most sites did.

Would be nice if when they hacked it they would at least site-lock it to their own site so all the other sites won't pickup the cracked one... Would be better if they just didn't hack it in the first place obviously!

Yeah. The other problem is that these pirated copies pollute my analytic data, requiring that I filter or reset it. I don't really care about things like engagement ratios or time-per-session on a site that isn't generating any revenue.

Worse, it seems like these sites are a "flavor of the moment" kind where people go for a quick fix and then move on when they find the game isn't translated into Chinese. LoK has phenomenal stats from all other legitimate sources. Something like 1.5 plays per session with ~30 minutes per session. But that number dropped rapidly with the ripped Kong version. I think it's like 3 minutes today. The bounce rate is awful now! :)

As for asking that pirated versions be removed, I've had similar results. I just haven't had any luck with 7k7k.com. 4399.com, we will see.

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JustBeHappy
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

Sorry to hear about that ChainedLupine.

There isn't a lot you can do about it though. Anything put into the game will simply be removed when they decompile it. If the big guys like Microsoft can't effectively fight it, then there's not much chance you can either.

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ttursas
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

Finland FI

Originally posted by JustBeHappy Sorry to hear about that ChainedLupine.

There isn't a lot you can do about it though. Anything put into the game will simply be removed when they decompile it. If the big guys like Microsoft can't effectively fight it, then there's not much chance you can either.

One could always use a tool like secureSWF, and add his own checks to the code, to make the hackers' life more difficult. If you make the code very difficult to read, how can the hackers remove the checks if they don't find them? :) Nothing is 100% safe, but sometimes some protection is a lot better than having nothing...

Anyway, has anyone gotten the code portalblacklist.com generates to work? ;)

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GamingAllNight
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

There is NO way to stop hackers / decompilers. I mean look at every PC game, ever - all have been cracked, or will be eventually. We are just lucky that the major crackers deal with actual games rather than Flash games.

I have an idea for support, is there a way to try to check for an automatic "outgoing" check. For example, have an invisible page inside Flash automatically try to check a specific page URL and than if that fails, to end the game -- again though, this can be overwritten by the decomiplers, but maybe it's another security check? idk just a thought for any of you Flash gurus.

Also, try contacting some individuals in the copyright business in China maybe? I found this article that relates to copyrighted videos (though it's a bigger market) you might be able to contact some Chinese copyright companies or w/e and advise them of those site's activities. - http://www.chinaipr.gov.cn/newsarticle/news/government/201009/971270_1.html

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4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

Pedja
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

Serbia RS

Originally posted by ChainedLupine

Originally posted by pedja Write them and say you'll file an dmca complaint. It worked for me (other websites were in question, but one was Chinese)

The DMCA is an American law and shouldn't have jurisdiction in China. Unless this has changed or there is something I am unaware of? If it does, and 4399.com files a counter-claim, then how do I take a Chinese company to court? I'm not sure this is a wise course for me to take....

Well, the DMCA is an American law and Google is an American company and also very "easy on the trigger"... Not all Chinese websites are using adsense, but multiply reports to big G might also get them very low in the search results (if not completely out)... Edit: I know that this is not the best solution, but combination of this and other stuff you've mentioned might work.

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wm
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Who is going to take notice of the DMCA and tell Google about it?

It might be better to file the DMCA and report the site to Google through their web form when they don't do anything about it.

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egdcltd
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

7k7k uses Google pre-roll ads, so you may have luck there.

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ttursas
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

Finland FI

Originally posted by GamingAllNight There is NO way to stop hackers / decompilers. I mean look at every PC game, ever - all have been cracked, or will be eventually. We are just lucky that the major crackers deal with actual games rather than Flash games.

Sometimes delaying the hackers by one week might be enough time for your build with ads to take over the internet and get most of the initial impressions. If the hackers release a hacked version later, well, lots of people have played your version with ads already... It's all about making the protection just good enough. And one might even make so good protections that the hackers decide that it's not worth the effort to hack the game, even though they could hack it if they spent months working on it... :) No matter what you say, I'm going to protect my games in the future, and enhance the protection every time I can.

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by ChainedLupine The company in China that contacted me about exclusive distribution rights is an FGL approved sponsor.

Sounds like YouYouLose.

Add: YouYouWin claims they != 7k7k, but they are.

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archbob
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

Originally posted by pedja

Originally posted by ChainedLupine

Originally posted by pedja Write them and say you'll file an dmca complaint. It worked for me (other websites were in question, but one was Chinese)

The DMCA is an American law and shouldn't have jurisdiction in China. Unless this has changed or there is something I am unaware of? If it does, and 4399.com files a counter-claim, then how do I take a Chinese company to court? I'm not sure this is a wise course for me to take....

Well, the DMCA is an American law and Google is an American company and also very "easy on the trigger"... Not all Chinese websites are using adsense, but multiply reports to big G might also get them very low in the search results (if not completely out)... Edit: I know that this is not the best solution, but combination of this and other stuff you've mentioned might work.

Google's blocked from China anyways and China is like 99% of the traffic. They only way to possibly get to these sites is to program a time-bomb into the game that displayed a political cartoon about tianmen square or something that goes off after 3 weeks. Nothing else will get their attention.

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob They only way to possibly get to these sites is to program a time-bomb into the game that displayed a political cartoon about tianmen square or something that goes off after 3 weeks. Nothing else will get their attention.

Oh, oh! That gives me an idea! You could load it from a server so that these pirates wouldn't be able to find it in your game assets list.

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wm
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

They would notice the code in your game that loads it (it's easy to find any calls to URLLoader or whatever). There are better ways to hide things, but I'm not going to write about that in public, because these things only work when other people don't think of them.

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by wm There are better ways to hide things, but I'm not going to write about that in public, because these things only work when other people don't think of them.

PM me?

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Crazy Ninja
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

I don't know though...seems like pissing off the Chinese could be fatal to more than just your game for example your host / server whatever...

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archbob
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

I've given up on the Chinese market. All my sponsored and made games get pirated within a day and get tons of views. Until the legal system changes over there, its pretty much hopeless.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by ttursas One could always use a tool like secureSWF, and add his own checks to the code, to make the hackers' life more difficult. If you make the code very difficult to read, how can the hackers remove the checks if they don't find them? :) Nothing is 100% safe, but sometimes some protection is a lot better than having nothing...

Anyway, has anyone gotten the code portalblacklist.com generates to work? ;)

I talked about this in LoK's post-mortem. I do license and use SecureSWF (Professional version). I aggressively obfuscated most of my game, especially the sensitive parts that were doing things like talking to Mochi and whatnot. But I couldn't actually obfuscate Mochi much because it doesn't work if you do. Rename identifiers, too much control-statement swapping, and it starts to break in strange and unusual ways. So there's not much I can do about that, unless I was able to take time to re-write significant portions of the Mochi AS3 library. As it stands right now, finding and nullifying the Mochi code could easily be automated.

The problem is that anything you do can be unrolled by decompilation. The initial version of my game relied upon SecureSWF's site-locking code. This was defeated in 36 hours by 7k7k.com; Possible via an automated tool. This is why I mentioned defense-in-depth in my post-mortem. If I had sprinkled a few more site-lock checks randomly through the code, I could have slowed down the pirates. My later Kong-exclusive versions of LoK was never hacked after that initial time. (Despite the fact that 1.6.2 was fairly significantly broken, with black-screen crash bugs.) But I'm willing to admit that wasn't due to my hardened code; These sorts are probably just lazy.

That first week was critical to me because LoK was released as an Kongregate exclusive. I was aiming to get badges on Kongregate, and that persistence paid off. LoK is now viral and distributed in a non-sitelocked version. If the game had been viral from the start, it's possible that the non-pirated version would have gained a proper foothold from the start. It's a risk that you have to take, I suppose.

But that scenario isn't much different from an exclusive, sponsored version. (Which is another reason why I stuck to the self-imposed Kongregate exclusivity, as it made for good practice.)

Originally posted by JustBeHappy There isn't a lot you can do about it though. Anything put into the game will simply be removed when they decompile it. If the big guys like Microsoft can't effectively fight it, then there's not much chance you can either.

Yeah, I realize that. But I'm new to this and I came here asking to see if anyone has had any luck with alternative ways of discouraging this sort of behavior, such as talking to the site owners.

I'm not going to use a method that will put racial or political statements in my game. That can back fire. Other more aggressive methods can back fire too. I'm not interested in spending too much time building elaborate security systems, either. I'm just trying to add enough layers of protection to prevent "drive by" theft.

I'm a single-person development team and I have to spend my time wisely.

I did joke with a friend that my next game should be Doctor Skeleton in the Land of Skeletons. Reference in case you don't get it.

nmz502, I will neither confirm nor deny because the contact was private. But I will say this: Besides the issue I mentioned already with 7k7k, I had searched for other people having dealings with this sponsor and what I found was a bit -- discouraging. Plus, I felt that some of the good news and success stories was purely astroturfed.

Thanks for the idea about DMCA notices for Google search links. That might be a way to combat the spread of my pirated game. It won't actually prevent 7k7k from hosting my game, but if I could get them and their compatriots out of search results, that would at least be something.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

ChainedLupine
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob I've given up on the Chinese market. All my sponsored and made games get pirated within a day and get tons of views. Until the legal system changes over there, its pretty much hopeless.

This seems to be the consensus I am getting from this thread. :/

That's a real pity.

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whileworking
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

bottom line: Developers can't do anything to protect their rights because some Chinese portals don't give a sh!t about copyrights referring to the Chinese law that doesn't give a sh!t about copyrights as well? great

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nmz502
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

United States US

I'm half expecting to see YouYouLose come here and say something like this:

We very sorry this has happened to you.We not 7k7k.com.We try not familiar with the development of the Chinese market provides a good,convenient service.Let us remember the next time you make a game,probably will not get hacked your game.

(Real engrish, FTW :D)

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IIAOPSW
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

hey, just a thought (a far off thought with no immediate application).

Could the mochi API, aside from providing ads, also provide a list of constants which you specify in your account (sort of like live updates only simpler).

What I'm getting at here is, what if your game was missing all the constants that made it work until the ads displayed? I'm sure someone will think of a work around, but you must admit it is a slightly better mouse-trap.

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Archbob1
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

Easy solution:

1.Fly to China

2.Challenge them to Mortal Kombat

  1. Flawless vicotry/ Fatality

  2. Profit

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Archbob1
Aug 03, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

After that, I'll fly to mochi offices, slap them upside the head and tell them to make a forum that doesn't auto format my posts. In other words, make it work like every other forum.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

ttursas
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago) edited 2 years 260 days ago

Finland FI

Originally posted by i_can_play Tell some truth:

2——4399 had employed some experts to decompile flash games.The 1st job requirements is:know how to decompile games.So you have no chance to protect your games.because decompile is their's job.

I wouldn't be too worried if these experts are Chinese. Anyway, I just love making the life of those who steal my stuff difficult. And if protecting my games and obfuscating the code means that other code thieves cannot reuse my code, all the better.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 260 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by i_can_play Tell some truth:

So, in short, ignore China entirely as a potential market while they continue to act like this. Gotcha.

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Lysis
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I like the "free Tibet" idea. Obfuscate the image/text and add a time lock of release + 3 days.

Also, how about setting games up to self-DOS the sites they're on? It could work something like this:

  1. Check that outgoing links work - occasionally fetch a small swf with game-important data from mochi free hosting, the local website (if possible - ok on Kong IIRC) and elsewhere.

  2. If the game isn't on the approved site (various obfuscated checks), then start making requests to the hosting domain for standard files (index.html, favicon.ico, robots.txt, the game itself ... um, anything else?) and perhaps non-existant files. Avoid caching with the url parameters trick.

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

undersiege
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United Kingdom GB

I thought about maybe exploding loads of homepage windows from games when they are hosted on these sites... Decided not to cos that punishes the player, not the site.

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bob
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by undersiege I thought about maybe exploding loads of homepage windows from games when they are hosted on these sites... Decided not to cos that punishes the player, not the site.

You can't do that anyway, the same setting that blocks links will also prevent this or any other request from Flash to the browser.

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undersiege
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

If you open their homepage it should work, shouldn't it? They have allownetworking set to internal.

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

I don't like the idea of DDOSing (illegal) or Free Tibet images that open after some time. I don't want to attack them, but instead show them that stealing the game isn't an option before they try to do it by having the images there from the start (which they would remove anyway as somebody said, making it ineffective sadly).

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

egdcltd
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United Kingdom GB

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem too likely that they'll stop pirating games unless there are negative consequences if they do. And that doesn't seem too likely until the PRC stop treating copyright as an optional extra that should only apply to their own stuff.

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

That's the only way to get them to stop. Everything else has been tried.

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jopo
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Bulgaria BG

well if i ever have a game so good that they strip it from ads and make it viral before i do i would just buy google ad for the china market to promote my page - how-4399-steals.com on their own sites :)

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ChainedLupine
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by wm I don't like the idea of DDOSing (illegal) or Free Tibet images that open after some time. I don't want to attack them, but instead show them that stealing the game isn't an option before they try to do it.

Worse, what if a potential sponsor has a Chinese employee who happens to load your game up while visiting his family and it detects via geoip that it's running from China, and pops up some Mao Zedong/Stalin slash art...

The same goes for broken-by-design games that require the loading of remote assets before they will function.

Here is an idea I briefly considered: Your game runs normally, but attempts to GET a remote url, perhaps with some unique key and an encoded loader url as query string parameters. On the remote side, use that key as a hash for a data block which it sends back in the body. This data block contains run-time values that control various parts of the game.

If the remote system thinks the referrer IP/loader url is kosher, it then sends back values that the game would normally use. If it is flagged as a nefarious source, it returns null. From there, the game loads default values hard coded into the SWF which sets the player's gun so it does zero points of damage, or that he has zero hit points and lives, and so on. Otherwise, if it had received a valid hash/block, it would use the the valid values for damage, health, etc.

So you end up with a game that can broken but not in an obviously immediate way, via a remote kill-switch. More elaborate schemes could actually send entire segments of class state as return values, via AMF3 encapsulation. You go all kinds of crazy and convoluted with that.

Sure, nothing a really determined pirate couldn't (eventually) work through, but we're talking about push the bar up to the next level, right? Make it so that these suspiciously-named 4-digit websites have to spend hours or more deciphering each game, versus just 5 minutes of "grab game, run through Mochi/site-lock stripper, profit."

But you got the same issue as above. What if somehow your game can't contact the server that does the checking? Or what if that server is down for maintenance and returns some 5xx error? Or Potential Sponsor is checking the game out on their laptop while on a flight?

The risk of turning my games into time bombs waiting to go off in innocent people's faces isn't worth it for me. Besides, as I mentioned, I don't have time to run around building elaborate security systems. I'd rather focus on making games.

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by ChainedLupine Here is an idea I briefly considered: Your game runs normally, but attempts to GET a remote url, perhaps with some unique key and an encoded loader url as query string parameters. On the remote side, use that key as a hash for a data block which it sends back in the body. This data block contains run-time values that control various parts of the game.

They copy the data, put it somewhere on their server and change the URL string in the game to point there. And set the key to whatever value matched the data on that fetch. Or even skip that whole thing and just trap the data decoding functionality, hardcoding the values from a successful fetch in there.

This might slow them down a bit (once), but I think that's about the best you can hope for. Probably not worth adding an external resource to your game for.

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Crazy Ninja
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

eh . deleted.......I'm tired of the whole mess.

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Lysis
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United Kingdom GB

I don't like the idea of DDOSing (illegal) or

Free Tibet images that open after some

time. I don't want to attack them, but

instead show them that stealing the

game isn't an option before they try

to do it by having the images there

from the start (which they would remove

anyway as somebody said, making it ineffective sadly).

The beauty of my proposed DDOS system is that they do it to themselves. It's not an offence it's a good defence.

On second thoughts I'm ambivalent about the Tibetian option because we can't exactly predict the outcome- people might die. While that would probably make other pirates think twice, I wouldn't want to be the cause.

What might still be an option is to display the image only when the game is on localhost.

Having an image there and visible from the start might even be better - firstly it might make most of them think twice. If done with code you could make sure they saw a comment while ripping it out - to the effect that you've hidden other messages. If they then go ahead then they're bringing it on themselves.

Something which just occurred to me. If the ' kill words ' are on the website itself then China won't even see it, thanks to the great firewall (need to use the Chinese words). I guess if you're a sponsoring website constantly being ripped off by Chinese sites then that might be a good fix. I see that addictinggames is already censored.

why do they have 4-digit names, anyway? Makes it easier to cryptically test for them, though.

Worse, what if a potential sponsor has a Chinese employee who happens to load your game up while visiting his family and it detects via geoip that it's running from China, and pops up some Mao Zedong/Stalin slash art...

I'm not certain you understand what's being proposed here. If the sponsor looks at it on FGL or wherever you've put it, they would just see the game as you intended it. If the site doing the stealing is trying to get the game sponsored for themselves - well, I don't want that to happen anyway.

The same goes for broken-by-design games that require the loading of remote assets before they will function.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't think it means what you think it means.

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Oh, they won't be able to pirate my next game, Democracy Anti-Communist Reeducation Through Labor: Tiananmen Square Massacre, Return of Chai Ling.

In Chinese:

民主 反共 勞教 天安門事件 柴玲

Add: The "Kill words" wouldn't become active unless the game detected tampering. I wouldn't have it go off if it "detects via geoip that it's running from China".

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Lysis The beauty of my proposed DDOS system is that they do it to themselves.

No they don't. They either know it's going to happen in which case they don't put the game up (or they hack the bad stuff out) or it's a time bomb and they have no choice in the matter and you've committed a crime.

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

This is the same mentality that radical Muslims have about it being okay to bomb nightclubs because they're full of half-naked girls. Value systems aren't absolute. Something that seems abhorrent in your culture might be perfectly normal in another, and they don't deserve that level of punishment for acting in a way that is considered reasonable amongst their peers.

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Good point, but here's another one to ponder.

Pirating is a crime in almost all the countries of the world. "half-naked girls" on the other hand, are not illegal in most countries of the world.

Whatever. The point is: They hack games, they get a message. How is that such a severe punishment? What will the government do, shut down their servers?

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

The scale of the two things I compared is irrelevant. I picked a very extreme example to hammer the point home. Trying to equate the two things is a road to navel-gazing madness.

It would be nice to be able to have material in the game that prevented them from stealing from us, but they should at least be given the choice and not tricked.

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Which is why the localhost warning is a good idea.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Alright, I had some time today, so as a test of how extensive and knowledgeable these Chinese pirates are, I've downloaded my game from 4399.com and ran a disassembly on it. I then ran a disassembly on my pre-Live Update wrapped SWF. After that, I compared the two and this is what I found:

  • As I suspect, this is just the SWF that is inside the Live Update wrapper, modified slightly. (ie: What I sent to Mochi for them to encapsulate.) So clearly they can strip out the SWF and defeat Mochi's encryption. No surprise there.

  • All obfuscation from SecureSWF is intact. Encrypted strings weren't decrypted, for example.

  • Mochi library code is actually all there and intact.

  • References to particular Mochi properties in my code were fuzzed out. For example, a call to showLeaderboard was modified as so:

callpropvoid QName(PackageNamespace(""), "showLeaddsadsad"), 1

  • Black list code is intact and functional, it wasn't nulled out or JMP'd past. (The only reason why it doesn't block 4399.com is because I'm using PBL's blacklist.txt, which doesn't list that site. Kind of stupid of me, I should have used my own text file hosted somewhere on a server I control.)

  • The reason why my failsafe ad displaying code doesn't work is because it uses the showPreGameAd function and that is disabled in Live Update-modified SWFs.

  • They NOPed the health decrement for the player damage method, so you are invincible. It wasn't particularly hard for them to figure out where this lies, as the identifier for that method was intact ("damagePlayer"). I need to learn more about why it was necessary to leave this identifier intact as part of the obfuscation.

So there you go. Everything except the last could have been done by a simple search-and-replace byte swapper that didn't know or care about my code. The blacklist and failsafe ad code didn't trigger because of design/logic errors and so technically weren't 'cracked', they just failed to work as intended. :P Only the final item actually shows they examined the SWF in some kind of opcode-level debugger. (Or maybe they didn't. There was just one decrement opcode in that whole method body.)

What's important to note here is that they did not use a standard commercial Flash decompiler because this was a single-byte opcode replacement. They might have used the same tool I did (RABCDasm), which allows me to extract ABC files, decompile them, modify them and re-assemble and re-insert. They just swapped decrement_i (bytecode 0xC1) with nop (bytecode 0x02). I took that same file, swapped the nop back to decrement_i and re-assembled/re-inserted and now I could be damaged by enemies.

I'm still learning ABC and P-code assembly, so I don't know of any bytecode-level debuggers which would have allowed them to ferret that out so quickly. Everything I've seen has worked at a much higher level. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

Edit: Removed erroneous conclusions.

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Thanks for sharing that! Very interesting :).

I've heard that chinese hackers have their own in house hacking software.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Oh, some additional notes I forgot to add:

  • Aside from the PreGame ads, Mochi is otherwise working properly. My gameid wasn't changed at all. So analytics are functional and I am seeing sessions from 4399.com.

  • I am actually getting some Mochi ad impressions from 4399.com. Why? Because my game will show an inter-level ad every X minutes of game play. (It's a very large value...)

Since all they did was short-circuit the pre-game ad (and the failsafe loading ad gets suppressed), inter-level ads will still work since Mochi is mostly intact.

  • They left everything in Mochi API unmodified except the showPreGameAd and scoreboards. I actually did implement scoreboarding, but later removed it. Why? Some concerns about scoreboard hijacking, but mostly it boiled down to this: The Mochi scoreboard UI stood out like a sore thumb, I didn't like how it clashed with my retro 16-bit look. :P Don't get me wrong, it's a nice looking UI. It just didn't fit and I didn't have time to write my own version.

Anyway, the scoreboard code that is in LoK is vestigal and nonfunctional, yet they fuzzed it out anyway. Between this and the fact they missed my inter-level ad calls kind of hints at an automated de-Mochifying tool which just blindly looks for certain Mochi strings and swaps them. Or maybe they only check the game so far before they publish it. (You would need to play LoK for a very long time before you saw the inter-level ad.) If that is the case, then time-bomb systems might actually be very effective.

  • Why bother to add invincibility? That doesn't really jive with the assumption they ran an automated tool. Someone felt it was worth the effort to decompile the player class and reverse engineer damagePlayer. Again, this might have been just blind fumbling around in the dissassembled ABC files, since a class method called "damagePlayer" is pretty obvious.

  • Side thought: Maybe 4399.com does this to all games on their site?

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bob
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

The short-circuit in the MochiAds code that you saw is done when you upload the SWF to Live Updates, it's to prevent a game from showing multiple pre-game ads.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Lysis I'm not certain you understand what's being proposed here. If the sponsor looks at it on FGL or wherever you've put it, they would just see the game as you intended it. If the site doing the stealing is trying to get the game sponsored for themselves - well, I don't want that to happen anyway.

I understand. My point is that a game which does something offensive/illegal/etc when some automatic mechanism determines it's time to set things on fire is a bad way to get burned. I'm just tossing out convoluted examples as to how it could go wrong, but in any case: it could go wrong and then you get a reputation for being a developer who releases games wrapped around hidden claymore mines.

And even if you had an absolutely foolproof system that was guaranteed not to harm a bystander, I don't agree with such drastic tactics.

But then again, I am certainly not your moral or legal counsel.

And I forgot to add earlier:

wm: You are right, they could defeat such a system. But they could defeat any system we devise, given enough incentive and time. I'm mulling ideas on how to complicate things or slip in additional tripping points. This is a bit different from Lysis's suggestion: My idea is to add more delaying tactics and should be viewed as ways to raise the barrier to pirating your game. Is it possible to deter these pirates to the point where they look for easier marks?

So unless they pay these hacker guys literally pennies an hour to sit around for days de-obfuscating every Flash game that rolls off the Mochi feed, intelligent delaying tactics could buy you time. Until your game gets popular and then all bets are off. It's as good as pirated. But hopefully by then you've satisfied your sponsor requirements or made decent ad revenue.

I have been looking for solutions that didn't rely upon additional layers of complicated obfuscation or game+claymore packages.

Maybe we should just write our games in some made-up language that we all invent individually, each with their own unique AS3 run-time compiler and bytecode interpreter. ;)

Anyway, thank you all for your time and this enlightening discussion.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by bob The short-circuit in the MochiAds code that you saw is done when you upload the SWF to Live Updates, it's to prevent a game from showing multiple pre-game ads.

So they made even less modifications to my game than I initially assumed.

To summarize, they:

  • Extracted the SWF from the Live Update-wrapped distribution copy. They didn't even have to disable the PreGame Ad because this is done automatically upon upload. (I should have made the connection. I remember now that Mochi mentions a string modification on the Live Update upload page.)

  • Fuzzed out the method showLeaderboard in mochi.as3.MochiScores. (And fuzzed out my method call in my code, even though it's nonfunctional.)

  • Modified the player class so you had unlimited health.

All the rest are design errors on my part. I didn't understand how Pre Game Ads were disabled (ignore what I said about the timer), so my failsafe ad didn't work and I already mentioned the blacklist problem.

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totor
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

so if you encrypt the blacklisted sites list check and then play an inter level ad you are ok ?

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Lysis
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by wm

No they don't. They either know it's going to happen in which case they don't put the game up (or they hack the bad stuff out) or it's a time bomb and they have no choice in the matter and you've committed a crime.

Wayne, let me rephrase that. They take a game-file without permission then they voluntarily upload a derived file which they have edited (see item three in the list below) to behave in a way not intended by the original author, and it happens to have a deleterous effect on their site.

I'd say they absolutely do have a choice to not to put the game up, as there are several stages under their control.

You might argue that deliberatly putting such a protection in changes things. However:

If someone were to steal a car, didn't take the steering lock off and crashed it - is the owner liable for any damage or injury to the thief? Is the steering-lock manufacturer liable?

I think that is a damn sight more relevant an example than your nightclub bombing one, which I have to confess I don't get the relevance of at all. The point was not hammered home; I missed it entirely.

Originally posted by ChainedLupine

I understand. My point is that a game which does something offensive/illegal/etc when some automatic mechanism determines it's time to set things on fire is a bad way to get burned. I'm just tossing out convoluted examples as to how it could go wrong, but in any case: it could go wrong and then you get a reputation for being a developer who releases games wrapped around hidden claymore mines.

But hold on a minute.

  1. I'm not proposing to do anything offensive or illegal. At least, not by the standards of either the dev or sponsor's respective countries. If you try to obey the laws of every country in the world, you'll find that laws vary enough to make this impossible. A women in a burka will offend the French, while a woman without a burka will offend some Moslem countries. (Still not to say that wm's bomber should blow nightclubs up!)

  2. By the time your game has been dicked around with by a hacker it's more often than not buggered up anyway. For example, having infinite health (to take a random example) will significantly and deleteriously affect the gameplay. Having your hacked game spreading around the internet is much more likely to be detrimental to your reputation.

  3. I did skip over a step. Put protection around your game which displays a polite notice saying that the game shouldn't be hosted elsewhere, and then doesn't proceed to the game. That takes care of the naive, the misguided and the innocent. I've mentioned this before a few times in other threads about protection and just glossed over it this time - as it's now 'obvious' to me.

  4. I still don't think you mean 'broken by design'. Phrases I'd use are 'Boobytrapped', or perhaps DRM. (If it is classed DRM, it's a particularly lenient one as far as consumers go).
    'Broken by design' means that <the thing> doesn't do the job required of it due to a flaw in planning.
    At least, that's my understanding (and if I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me).

  5. I'm editing (again!) to point out that you say
    "The same goes for broken-by-design games that require the loading of remote assets before they will function."
    ~ and then go right on to describe a (rather convoluted) system which loads remote assets before it will function.

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Games-Garden
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Come on people, I'm sure we can figure out a solution. We found out a way to make mochi version control run on mindjolt, games with kong's API running parallel with mochi version control, we've done many great games, made millions happy, made top dollars for many companies (including mochi :P), we're just great! we can do this together! let's do it! (and don't thank me 'cause you will spoil the joke). WOOHOO! Viva Mochi London!

alt text

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npgames
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

now that's outsourcing

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Lysis If someone were to steal a car, didn't take the steering lock off and crashed it - is the owner liable for any damage or injury to the thief? Is the steering-lock manufacturer liable?

The situation I was complaining about is more analogous to the owner of the car rigging the brake cables to snap and kill the driver if anybody stole the car.

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Can anyone explain why these chinese flash game pirating rings (7k7k, 4399, etc.) have 4 digits/letters in their name?

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ParaLogic
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Netherlands NL

That's math. A language every Chinese person understands.

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

Something to do with this sort of thing, I think: http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/pagercodes.php

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

08376 51476.

748, pirating portals because you make us 555. Your're probably thinking, '6868' at this point, well, '8074' to you.

8172, 865, 9958, 886.

I 812 809.

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ParaLogic
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

Netherlands NL

遛(遛-s)去

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wm
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

United States US

Is that the same as 去遛^2-去遛s?

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nmz502
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

United States US

I'm sorry? Did you say "Stroll to the", "Strolls to" or "Let's take a stroll"? Google translate isn't much help.

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ParaLogic
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Netherlands NL

It's a rebus. It's the same as 6(6-s)7.

Don't try to translate it, it doesn't mean anything really.

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IIAOPSW
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

well wm, call my a sociopath but I see no problem with rigging your cars breaks if someone steals it (except that you might have to get a new car). Maybe even leave a note in the dash saying "please do not steal, you will likely regret it" if that makes you feel better.

my phone has an imaged addressed to "the person that stole this phone." (its a picture of my balls).

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Alberton
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Hungary HU

(((My game is on 4399.com and 7k7k.com, and I got revenue for them. A very low eCPM (0.12), but some. I've chose to mochi distribute my game, also they appear in yellow, means they are registered mochi publishers. My game isn't using mochi live update)))

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Space
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Denmark DK

Originally posted by Lysis

Originally posted by wm

No they don't. They either know it's going to happen in which case they don't put the game up (or they hack the bad stuff out) or it's a time bomb and they have no choice in the matter and you've committed a crime.

Wayne, let me rephrase that. They take a game-file without permission then they voluntarily upload a derived file which they have edited (see item three in the list below) to behave in a way not intended by the original author, and it happens to have a deleterous effect on their site.

I'd say they absolutely do have a choice to not to put the game up, as there are several stages under their control.

You might argue that deliberatly putting such a protection in changes things. However:

If someone were to steal a car, didn't take the steering lock off and crashed it - is the owner liable for any damage or injury to the thief? Is the steering-lock manufacturer liable?

I think that is a damn sight more relevant an example than your nightclub bombing one, which I have to confess I don't get the relevance of at all. The point was not hammered home; I missed it entirely.

That's not a good comparison, because the thief knows about the steering lock, and has the choice to either remove it or leave the car alone.

You are talking about booby trapping the game. So you should compare that to booby trapping your car, so if someone steals it, after a little while, it will malfunction in some way, where the severity could be anything from spraying paint all over the thief, to make the steering suddenly luck, to even blowing up the car.

You can say, they should never have stolen the car, so it's their fault, but that doesn't protect you from liability. You deliberately booby trapped your car, with the intention of hurting any thief without warning. Your booby is not designed for preventing anyone from stealing the car, but only to injure them after they have already stolen it.

The point of the nightclub bombing example was that they bombed it, because they felt that the clubgoers inside were doing something they were not supposed to do, even though what they were doing is not illegal in that country, like you might "bomb" the chinese site, because they are stealing your game, although stealing your game is not illegal in their country.

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audrey85
Aug 04, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

China CN

In China,programmer are very cheap 4399 can employ an decompiling expert with 3000¥/month(about 500 dollars).

now most programmers expensive than it. good experience programmers at big city more than 7000¥ ,but to buy a house 60m2 over 1 million ¥. can not afford housing.

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Space
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago)

Denmark DK

Originally posted by IIAOPSW well wm, call my a sociopath but I see no problem with rigging your cars breaks if someone steals it (except that you might have to get a new car). Maybe even leave a note in the dash saying "please do not steal, you will likely regret it" if that makes you feel better.

You might as well just track down the thief, and shoot him in the face. It's the same.

We have a justice system to decide if and how people should be punished. We can't have every common man take the law into their own hand, and go around punishing people for crimes. If you can kill a thief for stealing your car, then I can throw you off a bridge for speeding, or beat you up for jaywalking.

Also a car with rigged breaks, might hurt other people than just the thief.

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cMn
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Malaysia MY

Originally posted by Alberton (((My game is on 4399.com and 7k7k.com, and I got revenue for them. A very low eCPM (0.12), but some. I've chose to mochi distribute my game, also they appear in yellow, means they are registered mochi publishers. My game isn't using mochi live update)))

My game: http://www.mochimedia.com/games/play/crack-the-diamond-oxo

also found here, http://www.7k7k.com/swf/72132.htm

and here, http://www.4399.com/flash/65298_2.htm?1024

....all Mochi Ads being intact.

I think the problems of piracy raised here can be resolved amicably through good communication, with a very good translator in between, between the different parties :)

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whileworking
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 259 days ago) edited 2 years 259 days ago

Ok, then please tell them not to block external links!?

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Lysis
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 258 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

The situation I was complaining about is more analogous to the owner of the car rigging the brake cables to snap and kill the driver if anybody stole the car.

It isn't really though, is it? - if the situation you mean is my 'self-DDOS' proposal. I did suggest that the Tibetian option might be too risky already.

I do agree about the necessity of having a legal system and behaving responsibly. Where we disagree is on how we see my proposed protection system.

There are various protection systems in meat-space which potentially may cause actual physical harm when warnings are disregarded. I am actually proposing giving a warning. And no physical harm is involved - worst case their website gives intermittent access until they figure it out.

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ChainedLupine
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 258 days ago) edited 2 years 258 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by cMn

Originally posted by Alberton (((My game is on 4399.com and 7k7k.com, and I got revenue for them. A very low eCPM (0.12), but some. I've chose to mochi distribute my game, also they appear in yellow, means they are registered mochi publishers. My game isn't using mochi live update)))

My game: http://www.mochimedia.com/games/play/crack-the-diamond-oxo

also found here, http://www.7k7k.com/swf/72132.htm

and here, http://www.4399.com/flash/65298_2.htm?1024

....all Mochi Ads being intact.

I think the problems of piracy raised here can be resolved amicably through good communication, with a very good translator in between, between the different parties :)

I emailed the address provided much earlier in this thread and I have yet to receive a response. I kept it as simple as possible, checking iteratively via Google Translate to make sure that the meaning would still be clear even when machine-translated to Chinese. (Take original message, translate to destination language, then translate back. Modify and repeat until you end up with something that will survive the transition, even if it sounds like baby talk.)

I didn't demand they take down my game. I didn't make threats. I asked politely. The only reason why I made this thread is because I've felt like I have had no other choice.

I would totally love an amicable solution. My experience so far has very negative, but ultimately I would like to see BOTH parties happy. Me with my games intact and with no modifications, and with them receiving their cut of the ad revenue.

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gio-m
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 258 days ago)

United States US

alt text

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cMn
Aug 05, 2011 (2 years 258 days ago)

Malaysia MY

Machine translation has certain limitations which only human translators can overcome. Eg: there was the instance where the word "who", was somehow translated as "World Health Organization" :)

Maybe I can help to verify if the email you sent to them has exactly the meaning you intended. Maybe you would like to PM to me the content of the email both in English and Chinese :)

Originally posted by ChainedLupine

Originally posted by cMn

Originally posted by Alberton (((My game is on 4399.com and 7k7k.com, and I got revenue for them. A very low eCPM (0.12), but some. I've chose to mochi distribute my game, also they appear in yellow, means they are registered mochi publishers. My game isn't using mochi live update)))

My game: http://www.mochimedia.com/games/play/crack-the-diamond-oxo

also found here, http://www.7k7k.com/swf/72132.htm

and here, http://www.4399.com/flash/65298_2.htm?1024

....all Mochi Ads being intact.

I think the problems of piracy raised here can be resolved amicably through good communication, with a very good translator in between, between the different parties :)

I emailed the address provided much earlier in this thread and I have yet to receive a response. I kept it as simple as possible, checking iteratively via Google Translate to make sure that the meaning would still be clear even when machine-translated to Chinese. (Take original message, translate to destination language, then translate back. Modify and repeat until you end up with something that will survive the transition, even if it sounds like baby talk.)

I didn't demand they take down my game. I didn't make threats. I asked politely. The only reason why I made this thread is because I've felt like I have had no other choice.

I would totally love an amicable solution. My experience so far has very negative, but ultimately I would like to see BOTH parties happy. Me with my games intact and with no modifications, and with them receiving their cut of the ad revenue.

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IIAOPSW
Aug 06, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

Originally posted by Space

Originally posted by IIAOPSW well wm, call my a sociopath but I see no problem with rigging your cars breaks if someone steals it (except that you might have to get a new car). Maybe even leave a note in the dash saying "please do not steal, you will likely regret it" if that makes you feel better.

You might as well just track down the thief, and shoot him in the face. It's the same.

We have a justice system to decide if and how people should be punished. We can't have every common man take the law into their own hand, and go around punishing people for crimes. If you can kill a thief for stealing your car, then I can throw you off a bridge for speeding, or beat you up for jaywalking.

Also a car with rigged breaks, might hurt other people than just the thief.

If you booby trap your car, and someone steals it and then dies, what exactly are you charged with? Better still, try and prove that tampering with my own breaks was in any way a booby trap. Prove I wasn't merely doing repairs which I had yet to complete when the car was stolen.

and depending on the exact situation and jurisdiction, you can in fact chase down a theif and shoot him. In particular, there was a case in Texas where exactly that happened (the theif was still on the mans property (Texas is a crazy part of the states, I should not use them as an example)).

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wm
Aug 06, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United States US

The point of this isn't the legality of it and whether you would win a court case.

Jesus fucking Christ, some people don't even realise that morals can exist.

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Space
Aug 06, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago) edited 2 years 257 days ago

Denmark DK

Originally posted by IIAOPSW If you booby trap your car, and someone steals it and then dies, what exactly are you charged with?

I already explained that. You are charged with booby trapping your car, with the intention of injuring/killing a thief.

Better still, try and prove that tampering with my own breaks was in any way a booby trap. Prove I wasn't merely doing repairs which I had yet to complete when the car was stolen.

What you have just expressed, is that it's ok to try to kill someone, as long as it can't be proved that you intended to do so.

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gio-m
Aug 06, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United States US

This car analogy is interesting but i don't think it fits. In my opinion the booby trap idea will be seen by the Chinese government as a cyber attack on there country. I don't feel that it will cause a big international incident but it will make them situp and notice (and when i say notice i mean you).

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wm
Aug 06, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United States US

Or instead of thinking in terms of yourself, you could wonder if it's okay to punish somebody in such a severe way for slightly wronging you.

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IIAOPSW
Aug 06, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

Fair enough*. So instead of cutting the breaks, just remove all the radio buttons and have it pre-set to full volume generic soft music station. If they don't return the car straight away, somethings wrong with them.

I suppose our "logic bomb" equivalent would be to have our games rick roll everyone in China.

you know what. I like this idea. folks, lets start rick rolling China.

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Lysis
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Or instead of thinking in terms of yourself, you could wonder if it's okay to punish somebody in such a severe way for slightly wronging you.

Wayne, it's you bringing up these ridiculously overblown examples. If you must keep on with the analogy it is like having a loud alarm.

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wm
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago) edited 2 years 257 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by Lysis Wayne, it's you bringing up these ridiculously overblown examples.

Uhm, no it isn't. Are you feeling okay, Mr. Car Analogy 2011?

I'm not talking in analogies at all. The post you quoted there is about putting people in political danger because they've committed small-scale intellectual property infringement.

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nmz502
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United States US

I wouldn't exactly call there pirating operation "small scale".

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wm
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United States US

It is for the individual who intends to respond by trying to trap the offender into political danger.

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Lysis
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I was the first to explicitly say why the 'political danger' approach was immoral. And it's clear that I've been talking solely about my 'self-DDOS' suggestion (which is at worst an annoyance) since my posting of 5th Aug (and given that, retrospectively since before then).

So I think repeatedly suggesting that I'm trying to kill people is a bit much.

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nmz502
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 257 days ago)

United States US

Political danger my foot.

At worst the government will block their site in china.

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gio-m
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by nmz502 At worst the government will block their site in china.

As much as i don't like the booby trap idea i would have to agree with nmz502. I know things in china are crazy but i don't think the government will imprison thousands for just playing a game that has a politically charged sign. Most likely a good percentage of the people who play the game will report it (In feeling of national pride and to cover there ass). Once the trail leads back to the Chinese publisher it would take a government computer expert (aka hacker) a few minutes to take apart the game and see what happened. If the Chinese publishers record is clean the most they will do is monitor the company and monitor the original creator of the game that was stolen.

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Lysis
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago) edited 2 years 256 days ago

United Kingdom GB

It's not the game-players that are the concern, gio-m. The worry is that the Chinese publisher (who hacked the game) might get in trouble (as opposed to the intended 'scaring off'). From here its hard to say whether that would lead to imprisonment and involuntary organ donation, but the Chinese system is considerably more bloodthirsty than even the US one.

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nmz502
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United States US

The worry is that the Chinese publisher (who hacked the game) might get in trouble.

Boohoohoo, BooHooHoo(or in chinese WuWuWu!).

So, what you're saying is that they might get into trouble for having a political cartoon on their site, but they don't get into trouble for hacking 10,000 games?

Unreal.

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gio-m
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Lysis It's not the game-players that are the concern, gio-m. The worry is that the Chinese publisher (who hacked the game) might get in trouble (as opposed to the intended 'scaring off'). From here its hard to say whether that would lead to imprisonment and involuntary organ donation, but the Chinese system is considerably more bloodthirsty than even the US one.

Bloodthirsty yes in the reports we get. They will investigate. They will see that no one on there side is at fault. They will see it as an attack from the country the game came from. I also feel that it is WRONG to booby trap. I also feel you guys are bringing too many conspiracy theories to this discussion. It's the hard core protester that gets arrested not the dumb schmuck that walks into it.

Originally posted by Lysis bloodthirsty than even the US one.

My My don't we feel superior.

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GamingAllNight
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United States US

Wow you people are going crazy bout this idea. They WILL NOT blame the United States for this crap. They will only see the person in the United States who created the game. THEY ALREADY BLOCKED A MAJORITY OF POLITICAL / NEWS SITES FROM THE US FOR THEIR "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" yet they don't blame US in general. This isn't going to start another Pearl Harbor so get over it.

Most they would do is see the game, than see that the publisher's site isn't a HUGE anti-communist party (where every game is anti-communist crap) and talk to the person and at msot, block their site in china = win for us.

That's ITTTTT. so stop making it seem like a few programmers are going to blow up the damn world, cuz it won't happen. Is it ethically right for a programmer to be doing such methods? NO, never said it was. Though, making it seem like China is going to kill a publisher for one, two or three games, than your crazy.

Also, if the publisher finds this game itself, they will NEVER attempt to take your game anymore. Maybe with the picture or w/e have a quote "You shouldn't be stealing and hacking Flash games, shame on you."

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Lysis
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

oh FFS.

There are two different proposals here.

  1. gio-m's proposal : Put politically dangerous slogans or imagery in the game

  2. Lysis' proposal : Detect tampering, and where found make many requests, causing a partial distributed denial of service.

Both approaches may be completely hidden or hidden but with warning. Approach 1 can also be completely open.

Approach 1 potentially has the risk of causing morally undesirable effects regardless of whether it's hidden or not. Remember there was a game which Mochi had to pull from the feed because people were arrested in some random country for hosting it. If memory serves it was by Raitendo and involved faeces and royalty. That was (presumably) unintentional, but the point is that it was not hidden functionality.

Approach 2 only causes a headache for the site-owners. I think it's morally justifiable, if it's wrapped with a warning which has to be hacked out. I also happen to think it's legal under most countries laws, including that of the UK and probably the USA.

I don't see that you have a leg to stand on, gio-m. It's not the hiding of the functionality which makes the moral difference, it's what the reasonably conceivable harm is. And it's your suggestion which falls foul.

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gio-m
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago) edited 2 years 256 days ago

United States US

I did agree a few post up that my politically dangerous slogans or imagery idea was over the top. What i am saying now is that i don't think this will course anyone to go to jail. I have no intention in adding anything politically charged in my games. Your detecting tampering is great. If you have a way to do it then go ahead. I have abandon the political attack idea for a more not so direct idea.

add: Lysis I like you detecting tampering idea but no the denial of service attack idea if there was only a way to have it let you know of tampering (but i know the problems with that).

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Lysis
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

While I agree that the death penalty is probably unlikely, I think arrests are not so unlikely. Whether it goes to trial or people are found guilty is irrelevant IMO. In any case, we're through with that idea.

if there was only a way to have it let you know of tampering

If the game is wrapped in a 'polite' sitelock which blocks all progress then you can assume that the game is nobbled if it's running anywhere other than where it should be. So you can have obfuscated sitelocks scattered throughout the game.

I've already mentioned that external references can be made to check that links work - if they don't then the game is destroyed through missing data. The same system can be used to make requests on the hosting party if you're doing that. (I never have yet - I thought of it when I posted above.)

There are other ways of detecting tampering - you can store data in blocks and checksum them elsewhere, for example.

(The following are some musings which fit the more general game protection mould.)

Of course all your code needs to be heavily obfuscated. Again, here there are options, I believe even in AS3. If you pass variables in objects then you can build up even large and intricate structures from apparently nowhere - hidden steganographically for example, or as side-effects of apparently housekeeping functions.
There are lots of clever and fun things to do here. You can never declare a variable, leaving any hacker at a loss as to where it arises. Or you can declare it to some unfortunate value, and fix it later.

Setting these things up takes time. So unless you think you've got a big game (or it matters a lot for performance deals, etc) it's probably not worth going completely to town on this.
But it sounds like just doing a little will make a big difference in the time taken to crack the game, if most of it is an automated system.

I particularly try to make issues arise some time after the game starts. That gives the hacker a lot more testing to do each time so slows things down a lot. I also don't care about the user experience of the game after it's been hacked. As I said before, once a game is hacked I figure its already been monkeyed with, so you can't lose further respect. Either you'll get blamed for poor game balance anyway, or the hacker gets blamed for introducing the bug. So I wouldn't think twice about trashing save-files, having a memory leak to use enormous resources, introducing progressive cpu usage or whatever.

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GamingAllNight
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United States US

Basically, all Flash game owners need is a newer encryption format that will encrypt the whole thing. Something like mochi's lock but since Mochis is known, they already know the ways around their protection, as with all other major protection methods.

This is why major anti-virus protection software like Norton and Mcafee are not as safe as lesser known products, mainly because virus creators make sure their viruses can get around those protections.

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nmz502
Aug 07, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

United States US

So everyone should make their own encryption method.

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totor
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 256 days ago)

everyone should deliver the encrypted swf from his personal server with own made protection but it completely defeats the purpose of simplicity offered by mochi.

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eichwulf
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

It's probably better not to use the Live updates, because hackers will remove it to be able to change lives, etc. So, just use a pre-game ad. Also, always include the pre-game ad code on FGL and Kongregate, so if a game is stolen from there it will still show ads. About your political discussion - wouldn't those people going to jail put an end to their hacking ways, so problem solved. Although I see another problem - the hackers might attack your site if you harm them and bring you a lot of trouble/lost revenue. Or the Chinese government can send an assassin to kill you. Like a friend always said: "If you punch someone, be prepared he might punch you as well."

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wm
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by eichwulf wouldn't those people going to jail put an end to their hacking ways, so problem solved.

Yeah, fuck it, let's just destroy people's lives, they're not me so why should I care, right?

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GamingAllNight
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by eichwulf wouldn't those people going to jail put an end to their hacking ways, so problem solved.

Yeah, fuck it, let's just destroy people's lives, they're not me so why should I care, right?

Hacking in ANY FORMAT is ILLEGAL. So they are breaking the law either way, they just get caught for a different crime. If someone murdered your family, yet got caught for running through a red light, would u want them to go to jail or just live happily ever after killing more people?

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jopo
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

Originally posted by GamingAllNight

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by eichwulf wouldn't those people going to jail put an end to their hacking ways, so problem solved.

Yeah, fuck it, let's just destroy people's lives, they're not me so why should I care, right?

Hacking in ANY FORMAT is ILLEGAL. So they are breaking the law either way, they just get caught for a different crime. If someone murdered your family, yet got caught for running through a red light, would u want them to go to jail or just live happily ever after killing more people?

if your kid steals an apple would you like his hand cut off?

yes they suck for pirating games but this should be dealt not the same way as they do.

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gio-m
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago) edited 2 years 255 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by eichwulf wouldn't those people going to jail put an end to their hacking ways, so problem solved.

Yeah, fuck it, let's just destroy people's lives, they're not me so why should I care, right?

Look the fact is China does have some degree of tolerance. Radical groups post signs and and other forms of protests all the time (yes if they are caught it is bad news for them). They don't wipe out an entire city just for seeing a sign or poster. Most people will just ignore it or call the authority. The thing is that people in China know there problems and know how to cover there own ass.

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nmz502
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago) edited 2 years 255 days ago

United States US

If an adult steals 100,000 apples and doesn't stop, no matter what you do, would you put him in jail?

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Username0123
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

Canada CA

Originally posted by nmz502 If an adult steals 100,000 apples and doesn't stop, no matter what you do, would you put him in jail?

i dont think anyone could steal that many apples

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nmz502
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago) edited 2 years 255 days ago

United States US

Ok, how about 10,000 apples?

Each apple = one game.

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Username0123
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago) edited 2 years 255 days ago

Canada CA

So a flash game is only worth 35 cents?

I mean sorry you can't compare apples to flash games I don't even understand where this is going.

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totor
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

100 000 apples should fit in a semi-trailer, so yes you just need one man to steal that. ;)

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Space
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago) edited 2 years 255 days ago

Denmark DK

Originally posted by GamingAllNight

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by eichwulf wouldn't those people going to jail put an end to their hacking ways, so problem solved.

Yeah, fuck it, let's just destroy people's lives, they're not me so why should I care, right?

Hacking in ANY FORMAT is ILLEGAL. So they are breaking the law either way, they just get caught for a different crime. If someone murdered your family, yet got caught for running through a red light, would u want them to go to jail or just live happily ever after killing more people?

It's not legal to take the law into your own hand, and hand out punishment as you see fit.

If you punish them for breaking the law, then you are breaking the law. Now if I think like you, I should punish you for breaking the law.

And what you would do if someone killed your family is hardly relevant.

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nmz502
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

United States US

@Trev, I was referring to this comment:

if your kid steals an apple would you like his hand cut off?

I don't get how putting a surprise "anti hacker" message = cutting someones hand off, or rigging your own brakes, etc.

Add: Some game, I think it's called "Toxor", has a delayed offline/sitelock kill-the-game thingy. If you run it offline it does strange things.

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archbob
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago) edited 2 years 255 days ago

[quote] It's not legal to take the law into your own hand, and hand out punishment as you see fit.

If you punish them for breaking the law, then you are breaking the law. Now if I think like you, I should punish you for breaking the law. [/quote]

If totally corrupt cops turn a complete blind eye to crimes over and over again, citizens will often take matters into their own hands. In that scenario, I do not think the citizens are being immoral as long as they give a warning first and the warning is ignored. Legal or not, if law enforcement does not actually enforce the law, then someone else will. No one will allow themselves to be victims forever.

And really, stop saying this is "petty theft" and "not a big deal". If it was one or two games, I'd agree with you. But its not, they've stolen millions of dollars worth of games over the years. That deserves some jail time in any country.

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menato
Aug 08, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

Italy IT

I have always seen the piracy very common (everywhere, not only in China!) since the days of the ZX Spectrum and its boxes sold at newsstands. The occasion makes the thief, so I though that it is necessary to invest time in protecting our software because of the ease with which an SWF file can be decompiled. I also think it is necessary to add an 'homemade' protection to the 'automatic' applied by special software.

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wm
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 255 days ago)

United States US

So what punishment do you deserve for knowingly profiting from all the stolen IP you publish on your site, Archbob?

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archbob
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

I'd say about the same as Kongregate, newgrounds, Mochi, and other places that also publish "stolen" IP.

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nmz502
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

United States US

Leave archbob alone. I'm not sure what you mean by "stolen IP". That's not the point. The point is that chinese portals are stealing many games.

I usually don't, but, this time I agree with you, archbob.

Anyway, everyone is free to do what they want. I have a feeling someone from mochi will be here to shut down this thread if it gets much longer.

I find things like developing copy protection/antipiracy algorithms fun so I'll be doing this in my future games(an ounce of prevention).

No one will die because one pirate in china pirated the wrong game

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wm
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by archbob I'd say about the same as Kongregate, newgrounds, Mochi, and other places that also publish "stolen" IP.

Not on purpose. You actually registered sonicandmariogames.com or something equally shit. Anyway, I've decided that the punishment for this is having your hands chopped off. It's only fair because you broke the law or whatever, hyuk hyuk.

Also, "these guys do it too" is possibly the weakest possible retort in this situation. It doesn't defuse anything. Serves me right for engaging with you.

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Archbob1
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by archbob I'd say about the same as Kongregate, newgrounds, Mochi, and other places that also publish "stolen" IP.

Not on purpose. You actually registered sonicandmariogames.com or something equally shit. Anyway, I've decided that the punishment for this is having your hands chopped off. It's only fair because you broke the law or whatever, hyuk hyuk.

Also, "these guys do it too" is possibly the weakest possible retort in this situation. It doesn't defuse anything. Serves me right for engaging with you.

No, I'm actually pretty sure they're aware of it. These games have been frontpaged several times. Mochi has an approval team that approves these games.

Look, none of us would really care that much if 4399 actually removed the content and stopped ripping if the developers asked them to. Everyone basically exhausted every other option. You can say all the pretty words you want wm, but you don't offer any solutions. Honestly, I don't think most of us will do anything, but I'm sure sooner or later, they're going to piss someone off enough for them to embed a hidden political cartoon.

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wm
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

United States US

You're right, I haven't offered any solutions to the China's piracy culture. I'll do it right after I cure cancer, the common cold and whatever brain disorder it is that you have.

Meanwhile, I'll let all of you get on with your nasty little attacks that will have no effect.

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ParaLogic
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

Netherlands NL

I love alter-ego's.

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Archbob1
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

Originally posted by wm You're right, I haven't offered any solutions to the China's piracy culture. I'll do it right after I cure cancer, the common cold and whatever brain disorder it is that you have.

We've tried all the nicer ways to get them to stop, they don't work. Some people just aren't satisfied with the solution of "just sit there and let them steal more".

Maybe you think that making smart-alec comments and pretending to be holy and rightoues is more important than actually getting their attention and showing them there might be harsher consequences if they don't stop, but many people here don't think that way. We've tried blacklisting them, repeatedly emailing them, shaming them on forums. Nothing works. The only way to get them to stop is to actually get law enforcement over there to notice them.

Believe it or not, Piracy is actually illegal in China. Its just that officials are bribed and or corrupt so they don't enforce it. So, they live in a country where its not enforced and they can get away with it. Well, we live in countries where hiding political cartoons denouncing communism isn't illegal either.

If they don't steal our stuff in the first place, they won't have this problem.

I'm fine with giving them several warnings first in the form of emails before you actually do anything.

Right now, these sites simply think that developers aren't serious about protecting their work.

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wm
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

United States US

Not every solution or valid reaction to a problem involves announcing petty, moronic plans on a public forum.

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egdcltd
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by wm Not every solution or valid reaction to a problem involves announcing petty, moronic plans on a public forum.

Well, if it works for politicians.

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Archbob1
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

Originally posted by wm Not every solution or valid reaction to a problem involves announcing petty, moronic plans on a public forum.

Its not petty or moronic. Its a solution of last resort that someone else bought up earlier in the thread. Its been suggested because it might actually work, unlike all those "non petty, non-moronic" solutions that have been tried thus far.

They've made it pretty clear that nice diplomatic solutions will simply not work with them.

Its a valid reaction since all the other nicer, diplomatic ways have failed. They've gotten bolder and bolder through the days. First it was just blocking links, then it became hacking games now there are instances where they hack and then redistribute with their branding and there was even an instance where they stole an un-published game off of FGL.

Sitting there is no longer a valid solution/reaction. If your serious about protecting games, you need to do something that actually gets their attention or that gets law enforcement to actually notice them.

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Space
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

Denmark DK

But who are you to complain or try to punish them, for something you are doing yourself too?

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nmz502
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

United States US

I haven't seen archbob decompiling/hacking a game.

Who are you to try and stop someone from stopping someone from punishing someone?

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Space
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

Denmark DK

Originally posted by nmz502 I haven't seen archbob decompiling/hacking a game.

Who are you to try and stop someone from stop someone from punishing someone?

Stealing IP is the issue.

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totor
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

Did you contact the embassy of China in your country to explain the problem ? Did you contact your embassy in China to tell them ? Did you filed a complaint at the WTO ? Did you go public with big gaming sites like they did : http://www.thepencilfarm.com/blog/2008/02/snow_day_at_the_beijing_olympi.html ?

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Archbob1
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago) edited 2 years 254 days ago

Originally posted by Space

Originally posted by nmz502 I haven't seen archbob decompiling/hacking a game.

Who are you to try and stop someone from stop someone from punishing someone?

Stealing IP is the issue.

If the owner of a copyright that is in a game that I published ever complains to me about it, I'll take it off the site. I've never actually developed or sponsored a game with anyone else's IP and I don't hack or decompile games. 4399 and 7k7k don't remove the content even after repeated requests. They've received dozens of complaints.

The embassy doesn't really handle these matters, its no use to contact them. This has nothing to do with going public. Just because they made a Beijing olympic games flash game doesn't change the fact that they are still decompiling and hacking our games. Contacting their host didn't work, contacting their advertisers didn't work. Trying to contact them didn't work.

Its quite simple, they have no interest in a nice solution.

And space, I'm not hacking their servers or directly taking down their site. If they don't steal games and start licensing them, they won't have a problem with cartoons or notices going off. Thats the entire goal. I could care less if they are punished or not as long as they stop doing what they are doing now.

I'm done with this thread. I'll use a less direct way than a political cartoon and just let the Chinese population know that these sites steal games. Down the line if they piss off enough developers to do something drastic, I'll join in on stronger actions once devs actually decide to do something substantial to protect their interests.

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audrey85
Aug 09, 2011 (2 years 254 days ago)

China CN

just let the Chinese population know that these sites steal games.

Every developer know that,but the user who play game children did not care of it. no sponor, all pirates ,if one portal buy license ,then will be quickly crack by other portals. I want to sell my new game license to 4399,their response is very disappointing. best method you come to China,then to his company, give him who crack you game a punch. haha...

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Casual_Collision_Max
Aug 10, 2011 (2 years 253 days ago)

My only suggestion is to try and work with them. I got a hold of a few people from 7k7k and even though my game Aqua Bots gets like 10k unadvertised plays everyday (literally for years now) Im getting revenue on all my new games there.

Its pretty much the only thing you can do to avoid getting completely shafted in the Chinese market.

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ParaLogic
Aug 10, 2011 (2 years 253 days ago) edited 2 years 253 days ago

Netherlands NL

Originally posted by Casual_Collision_Max My only suggestion is to try and work with them. I got a hold of a few people from 7k7k and even though my >game Aqua Bots gets like 10k unadvertised plays everyday (literally for years now) Im getting revenue on >all my new games there.

Its pretty much the only thing you can do to avoid getting completely shafted in the Chinese market.

The problem is that they don't want to work with us.

If every developer would make sure that their games will not run on those Chinese sites, they can't add games. We should at least annoy them as much as possible to make is as hard as possible to steal games.

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gfulpak
Aug 11, 2011 (2 years 252 days ago)

Sorry , I don't understand the point for Chinese portal of removing the ads? if the game is good and generate the traffic they are looking for . Why do they care about whether there is ads or not at the beginning of a good game?

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nmz502
Aug 11, 2011 (2 years 252 days ago)

United States US

Because chinese people don't like ads.

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gfulpak
Aug 11, 2011 (2 years 252 days ago)

ok . So they are willing to have developers against them just for a simple preference...thanks for the answer..

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nmz502
Aug 11, 2011 (2 years 252 days ago)

United States US

Ok, well, maybe it's not because chinese people don't like ads.

That's just a random guess.

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gfulpak
Aug 11, 2011 (2 years 252 days ago)

I would say the game brings a lot of traffic ads on. But with out ads, it is more pleasing for users and it would increase the traffic significantly. That's my guess

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ChainedLupine
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 252 days ago)

United States US

Just the facts, ma'am:

After using the email address that was provided much earlier in this thread and hearing no response, I sent a shotgun email across every email address I could find on the 4399.com site.

I eventually received a response from Amy (email address zhouliming AT 4399.com). She announced she was the business manager of 4399.com and told me that I should go upload this game to their developer's platform utilizing their developer API. "...then you can get 50% of the ad revenue."

I sent this back:

Hello. I am not interested in utilizing your developer API at this time.

My game is to be distributed as I release it, with the Mochi API intact and functional.

Please remove the copy of my game from your website which has the Mochi API disabled. This is a pirated copy. I will only consider adding your developer API to my game once this pirated copy has been removed.

Thank you.

She then contacts me back to ask for a legit copy of the game. (Which I had put a link to in the original email.) I was busy yesterday so I didn't send her a reply back then.

The next day (today) I received this in my inbox:

The pirated version was collected from other sites, we don't decompile games. we've replaced it with your version.http://www.4399.com/flash/65904_1.htm?1024 we welcom more foreigner developers to join us. please tell developers on mochi that we've solved this problem. and if you can upload games to dev.my4399.com will be better. regards!

I checked the link. It now contains what appears to be my Live Update-wrapped 1.6.3 version, which is what is distributed via the Mochi content feed. I haven't checked to make sure this is a byte-accurate copy, but I will do so later when I have time.

One thing to add is that the new 4399.com page for my game no longer blocks external links. It was doing so for the pirated copy.

I will let you judge for yourself based on this information.

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ParaLogic
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 251 days ago)

Netherlands NL

They always say they got it from other sites. That's just bollocks. They willingly put up the hacked version and they willingly block the external links. Fat chance they spotted this thread and decided to replace your game so that you could tell us they are willing to listen.

But they still put up hacked versions and they still block links. Then in case a developer mails them, they slap the unpirated game to a place where it receives only a few views. But only after making a profit of it first.

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nmz502
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 251 days ago)

United States US

^What he said is true.^

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andrefbr21
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 251 days ago)

Well, I was using Flixel, and the pre loader have some function that checks if the player is playing from your URL, if not it shut's off the game.

http://flixel.org/

you can try to implement that, dunno if will help you, but if they hack the game and change the pre-loader code, it will be hard.

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wm
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 251 days ago)

United States US

Flixer's sitelocking code is just as hackable as any other.

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GamingAllNight
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 251 days ago)

United States US

As mentioned, you can ALWAYS build your own encryption code that will check off your server for certain conditions.

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davidlougheed
Aug 12, 2011 (2 years 251 days ago)

Lol, I just "posted my game using youyouwin's API".

Guess I'm too gullible. Meh, I don't really care about that game anyway, it's a piece of crap.

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chazzer998
Aug 14, 2011 (2 years 249 days ago)

If you use Flash Protector Gold, they struggle to hack the three layer encryption on that.

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lmaothedoom
Aug 18, 2011 (2 years 246 days ago)

I had same problem with 4399.com.

After I sent an e-mail to Amy (zhouliming@4399.com) and contact with their domain hoster (service@ename.com) they replaced pirated version of my game which was downloaded from Kongregate with live updates version from mochi with ads: http://www.4399.com/flash/67205_2.htm

Answer from ename.com: "We have reminded the domain owner of 4399.com to solve the problem within a week. Otherwise, 4399.com will be put on registrar-lock. Please let us know if the problem remains then. Thanks."

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cMn
Aug 28, 2011 (2 years 235 days ago)

Malaysia MY

This is what I call "solving problems through good communication" :)

Originally posted by lmaothedoom I had same problem with 4399.com.

After I sent an e-mail to Amy (zhouliming@4399.com) and contact with their domain hoster (service@ename.com) they replaced pirated version of my game which was downloaded from Kongregate with live updates version from mochi with ads: http://www.4399.com/flash/67205_2.htm

Answer from ename.com: "We have reminded the domain owner of 4399.com to solve the problem within a week. Otherwise, 4399.com will be put on registrar-lock. Please let us know if the problem remains then. Thanks."

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nmz502
Sep 01, 2011 (2 years 231 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Officail_BONEZ You Might want to get some kind of DMCA to get involved for this theft. But Man, That is heart Breaking when seeing that many hits and you didn't get nothing for it. I don't know if any DMCA agency's can do anything about digital content, but it's worth a shot. I would just do a search for a chosen DMCA agent to help. I hope that this can be resolved. I had products riped off from me but nowhere near as advanced as your products. Sorry to hear that.

I'm not sure you understand DMCA is. It was created to protect digital content.

DMCA can't really do anything in china.

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YWP
Sep 02, 2011 (2 years 231 days ago)

Yeah, it's official. DMCA is ineffectual in China. The officials there just don't care. Any related endeavors would result in an epic fial. Just saying.

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JoKa
Sep 07, 2011 (2 years 226 days ago)

I'm a bit irritated because a game of mine (Fruit Dude) was picked up by 4399 and ads are shown+paid. In this game I had not added 4399 to the blacklist routine, seems they just took it and everything's fine.

How should I interpret that, do they only spend time to steal "worthy" games?

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whileworking
Sep 07, 2011 (2 years 226 days ago)

Originally posted by JoKa was picked up by 4399 and ads are shown+paid

Good for you. But are all external links blocked? If so, the advertisers have been cheated... obviously

Originally posted by nmz502 DMCA can't really do anything in china.

Seems so, but due to this fact the Chinese internet should be disconnected from the WWW, shouldn't it? I mean, you can't operate in a legal vacuum but also in countries where you infringe the law! Insane.

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JoKa
Sep 07, 2011 (2 years 226 days ago)

Originally posted by whileworking

Originally posted by JoKa was picked up by 4399 and ads are shown+paid

Good for you. But are all external links blocked? If so, the advertisers have been cheated... obviously

I see you're right. Guess I'll add them to my blacklist. My next game will not give a notification that such a site was detected, hope they don't search for the blacklist code without an obvious reason, so I can trigger some nice things later in the game :)

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nmz502
Sep 07, 2011 (2 years 226 days ago)

United States US

I see you're right. Guess I'll add them to my blacklist. My next game will not give a notification that such a site was detected, hope they don't search for the blacklist code without an obvious reason, so I can trigger some nice things later in the game :)

Heh Heh Heh :D.

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Lysis
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

What is a site lock? It's just 1-3 lines of text that any Flash decompiler can extract.

Sure. but you can hide those three lines in the thousands of lines of code and megabytes of data.

It doesn't have to look like a site lock.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

And there's just no other choice. Obfuscation is all we have.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Kind of defeats the whole point of making a game then if players can never play it.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

How can people play your games then if the key is never sent to their computers in order for them to be decrypted to play? If the key isn't sent, the game won't work. Once it is sent, it can be intercepted, or the swf that has had that layer of encryption removed can then be broken further.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by egdcltd How can people play your games then if the key is never sent to their computers in order for them to be decrypted to play?

He's saying that it is sent over the network when the game starts up.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

But that's a weak point. It means the key is being sent to the local computer, which means it is available locally.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

You're saying the key is never available locally though. However, for it to work on a players' computer it must be available locally at some point, even if it is only sent once the game is started. Once sent, that communication can be intercepted, or the decrypted swf can be taken from memory. The only way of preventing the key from ever being on the player's computer is to never send it. Which means the game won't work.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Doesn't matter if it's run inside a browser, the file is still on my computer. Which means I need the key to play it. Which means you need to send me the key.

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Lysis
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Yes, but the key is sent only if the game is running within the browser not if you run SWF by clicking on it once or twice from file explorer or whatever.

And at that point, the hacker can rip your decrypted game from memory anyway. So basically not a big improvement then.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

That's useful if the point of the encryption was to not allow local play, but most people want it so that nobody can alter the game and redistribute a new version. Once it's decrypted anywhere all bets are off.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

They can take some "fun" ram tool or something, and retrieve the key from memory.

Besides, why can't they just decompile your swf with an ABC tool, and hack the key checks out?

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

THEY CAN TAKE YOUR KEY OUT OF MEMORY.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames .. and of course, the key is not stored locally, that's the whole point, the secret still remains a secret.

It doesn't matter if it's stored. The data is being passed to the SWF in a way that it can read, which means the user can read it too. For security purposes, any data you give to the SWF is also given to the enemy.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Maybe your games aren't good enough to get hacked, and that's why you've never had problems with them being hacked before.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

The SWF is the user, any data you give it is the enemy's, end of story. Your high scores not being hacked is not exhaustive proof. It might just be that nobody cares enough.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Once the key is sent, the file is available unencrypted.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

If it's always encrypted, how can the player play the game? You should post an example and see how long it takes someone to crack it.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

so i cant just remove all the net calls and be done with it? since i have the game i can remove add delete edit parts of it? i mean sure i believe you can do keys and shit but at the end you all depend on an if statement.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames good luck with the dump

This is very easy to do.

You also gave me the key when you gave the SWF the key.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by jopo so i cant just remove all the net calls and be done with it? since i have the game i can remove add delete edit parts of it? i mean sure i believe you can do keys and shit but at the end you all depend on an if statement.

Bingo.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

The only truly unbreakable encryption is a one-time pad. Which I'm pretty sure you can't do with a Flash game, and even if you could, you would be giving a copy of the pad to the end user - which is the only way to break that type of encryption.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

Sweden SE

There is another unbreakable "encryption" ::- D.

OnLive.

Good luck stealing a video stream *laugh*!

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames Well, if it's that easy then how come none of crack groups who cracked my PC games managed to crack my hiscore posting which depends on the key on the server side? And these guys are master reverse engineers and yet it still puzzles them.

Read:

Maybe your games aren't good enough to get hacked, and that's why you've never had problems with them being hacked before.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I couldn't break OnLive, whatever that is, but give me enough resources and I could do it.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

You're playing games on remote servers with onlive. So it's kind of like watching a video.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

I'd be surprised if they really gave a hairy shit about your high scores.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

Originally posted by codergames Well, if it's that easy then how come none of crack groups who cracked my PC games managed to crack my hiscore posting which depends on the key on the server side? And these guys are master reverse engineers and yet it still puzzles them.

they dont need to crack your scores, the hell who needs that? they need to remove the links remove the ads - score posting - they can add their own scores why should they want to direct traffic to your score site, which is the main reason for implementing scores from portals. what those china portals want is free unbranded, "un-aded" content. if they need high scores theyll just add their own and comment yours.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

A Flash game which is stored locally on the players' computer which is cracked to remove ads, APIs, sitelocks etc is not the same thing as highscores stored on a remote server.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Sweden SE

No, you can't break OnLive no matter your resources. You can't steal a video stream.

Except if you actually break into their server farms and give yourself rights.

I'm hoping OnLive will allow AIR-wrapped Games.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by Kyliathy No, you can't break OnLive no matter your resources. You can't steal a video stream.

Except if you actually break into their server farms and give yourself rights.

I'm hoping OnLive will allow AIR-wrapped Games.

Having looked it up, OnLive isn't encryption.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by codergames

Originally posted by egdcltd A Flash game which is stored locally on the players' computer which is cracked to remove ads, APIs, sitelocks etc is not the same thing as highscores stored on a remote server.

It's the game that is posting all the values: name, score number, achievements, etc.

Which is irrelevant to cracking a Flash game.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

Originally posted by codergames

Originally posted by egdcltd A Flash game which is stored locally on the players' computer which is cracked to remove ads, APIs, sitelocks etc is not the same thing as highscores stored on a remote server.

It's the game that is posting all the values: name, score number, achievements, etc.

ok dude you are awesome. GLHF

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames

Originally posted by egdcltd A Flash game which is stored locally on the players' computer which is cracked to remove ads, APIs, sitelocks etc is not the same thing as highscores stored on a remote server.

It's the game that is posting all the values: name, score number, achievements, etc.

It might be obfuscated well enough for nobody to want to invest the time to send a fake score, but whatever the game client can do a human can do too, so it's crackable.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames They failed to crack and are still trying

The fact that this constitutes proof in your mind explains everything about you :-)

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

They cracked the game though. Which is all Flash game crackers want. They don't care about your highscore system on your server. They just want your game with your highscores, ads, links etc removed.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

No one cares about your silly PC games.

SERVERSIDE CAN BE HACKED.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

That protects the data from anybody between the SWF and the server. It offers no protection against somebody who is at the client side. I don't think you are going to be able to grasp this. If you feel confident about your encryption then please create a SWF that receives something from the server and challenge us to extract that data. The upside of this is that you will be famous and rich beyond your wildest dreams when you achieve it.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by codergames @wm Extract the main character graphics, tell me when you're done. This is the plain unwrapped SWF: http://www.codergames.com/swfs/Headix.swf

EDIT: .. good luck :)

You're right, I'll need it. I'm sorry, I'll admit it. You've beaten me and I shouldn't have shot my mouth off. The assets are clearly protected on the server, and obviously there's no way for me to access them.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Sweden SE

egdcltd: I never said OnLive was encryption. Hell, you may even argue it's not really gaming (I would agree!). But that doesn't change the fact that they can provide entertainment and nobody can steal something put ONLY there. They'll steal it from other sources. At least until OnLive gets big enough to get exclusive games and everybody jumps on the cloud.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by Kyliathy egdcltd: I never said OnLive was encryption. Hell, you may even argue it's not really gaming (I would agree!). But that doesn't change the fact that they can provide entertainment and nobody can steal something put ONLY there. They'll steal it from other sources. At least until OnLive gets big enough to get exclusive games and everybody jumps on the cloud.

Well, technically you did, but you put it in quotes, so I'll let you off :)

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

Sweden SE

LOL @ wm

P.S.: You changed your avatar, but you're still frowning. Although, now you have the excuse that it's natural ::- D.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames @nmz502 So hack it. Experienced cracking groups of reverse engineers failed, still trying though, on the games side. I had one cracker suggesting that I'm using SQL and that he can't do anything about my server side, which is a way of cracker saying, he knows what I'm doing but can't do shit about it. And he's right.

I can't. That's illegal.

Anything else you want extracted from your game, besides what wm posted?

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Sweden SE

egdcltd: yes, that's why I put it in quotes, because I meant "not crackable". Truth is, it was without quotes when I typed it, then I thought about it, while writing the post, and I realized the video stream isn't something which you could crack (well, except if we talk about BluRays), so I put the quotes. I feel so good now that I confessed ::- D.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

Bulgaria BG

bah i suck at editing posts :(

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

Originally posted by wm PS: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6127955/junk/ohdear/ohdear.html

what took you so long was the game slow loading ... took forever to load for me :)

edit - quoted wrong text :)

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by codergames @wm Extract the main character graphics, tell me when you're done. This is the plain unwrapped SWF: http://www.codergames.com/swfs/Headix.swf

EDIT: .. good luck :)

You're right, I'll need it. I'm sorry, I'll admit it. You've beaten me and I shouldn't have shot my mouth off. The assets are clearly protected on the server, and obviously there's no way for me to access them.

I told you so. And why would I lie? And the protection I made for my next PC game is even better. I assumed Mochi did the same, but they didn't unfortunately. So why not improve their service making something similar, based on the same principle?

I think you've missed something. But keep going. This is fucking hilarious.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

Sweden SE

codergames: click here, see first post (sorry, but wm did manage to get an asset from your game): https://www.mochimedia.com/community/forum/topic/4399_com-is-pirating-my-game#91ab482b

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

United States US

I didn't even bother trying the easy way. I tried RABCDAsm first :P.

to you codergames XD.

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gio-m
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames Ok, now make a pirated version of my game with those resources.

Now bake me a cake!!! It's over man just let it go.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames Ok, now make a pirated version of my game with those resources.

HAHA! What? Are these self-destructing PNGs?

Just give up man. Your brilliant encryption scheme offered up every resource in your game on a plate. It was easier to extract them than it was to extract something from a completely unprotected SWF. I didn't need any tools that didn't come as standard with my mainstream web browser. I had extracted the main character before your game had finished loading.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

Sweden SE

codergames: Yes but a very persistent [cra/ha]cker could. And [cra/ha]ckers are ALWAYS very persistent ::- D. And wm probably has zero tools compared to those guys.

They got stuff in which they simply put the URL to your game and it nicely spits out all the resources. And even your on-demand stuff will get fried because they can run your SWF inside a ripper application, play through your game while the ripper slowly does its job and vampirizes everything you got in there.

If I would even care or have the time, I could write such a thing in C#. But I got better things to do ::- ).

Also, when your game streams those resources through the browser, any proper dev-tool such as FireBug can catch them.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames Keep in mind that not all of the game resources will be in there when you start the game, so you won't be able to extract them all from memory as they're fetched on demand.

Fortunately I didn't have to extract anything from memory, because your game provided every single resource as an easy, clickable link in the network tab of Chrome's developer mode.

Your security meant that I didn't even have to interact with the SWF at all.

Whoops.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

Originally posted by codergames Keep in mind that not all of the game resources will be in there when you start the game, so you won't be able to extract them all from memory as they're fetched on demand.

i can't imagine that you are so naive ... i just hope that because of english is not your primary language (as ist not mine as well) you have misunderstood what people are trying to say not only in this topic but in the other as well.

just play smart and admit. there is nothing wrong in being wrong from time to time but its always bad to be right all the time.

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

You should offer a cash prize to the first person who does it.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

I feel like we should leave him alone now, because he clearly has mental health issues. It seemed like he was just a regular idiot at first, but now it's going to start to look a lot like bullying a vulnerable person and I don't want to be the ringleader.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Sweden SE

I do see codergames' point. It's hard to JUST TAKE HIS GAME and put it on another portal.

But I think there is another problem here:

codergames, if you make a game which has 1 million plays / week, tell me, how will your server handle that load? The entire point of multiple publisher sites is that the Publisher carries the weight.

You would pay more in bandwidth costs than you would get in advertisement ::- (. And that's a big problem.

So, your sacrifices for security are too great, I think.

I'm not saying you haven't built something hard to pirate. You did. But at what cost?

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egdcltd
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I know I couldn't crack a game, I never said I could. I couldn't break any level of encryption, no matter how basic. I just can't think the right way to crack stuff.

I do know that other people could crack it though.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Kyliathy I do see codergames' point. It's hard to JUST TAKE HIS GAME and put it on another portal.

Host the assets somewhere else, change the URLs in the game to point at them.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

You have no mechanism to prevent that from being changed. I understand that you will argue that you do, but you don't. Please don't waste your own time on this nonsense.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Sweden SE

wm: right. I didn't think at that. You got me. Could be a bit more time consuming than ripping the resources, but yeah, totally doable.

codergames: they can hack your game so they go at the same URL, that's quite easy.

Hey, a good idea would be to wrap every sub-pixel (per R, G, B value) of every art object in the game (per frame for the animations :D) to different URLs, with different passwords, using SSL and various methods of fetching (some via Base64 Strings, some via byte arrays, some via Arcane Divination).

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

United States US

The game fetches resources so it's definitely using URLRequest to get them. That's where the new URLs go. There is no way around this. You also can't obfuscate Flash library calls, so there's no way to hide this code. It's also particularly trivial to trap network calls because of the way they advertise themselves.

You need to understand that if the SWF has something then so does anybody who can play it. There is no way around this. This isn't just "oh, it's too hard to protect". It's actually impossible.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Imma try my hand at this. BRB.

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Kyliathy
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Sweden SE

*grabs popcorn*

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames Please do the final step and pirate my game, pretty please

It's not worth my time and I don't trust you not to try and persecute me for doing it. What I've written is true and anybody worth their salt reading this knows that too. I have nothing to gain in convincing you of anything, and we've already had our fun breaking one of your unbreakable encryption systems today.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

this just went from fun, and insane to dull and boring. good lock making anyone bother.

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

United States US

That was fun :).

For keeping my entertained this afternoon codergames, you get to watch this NWO video.

I've got a site to finish working on.

Have a nice day.

PS: I understand now why you felt like newgrounds was "hostile". You sound like an angry crazy person.

EDIT: If anyone is tired of this thread, go to that youtube video and leave a comment about something crazy :D. I'll give anyone who does that a vote up on youtube.

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wm
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames It's still easy

Then why would I bother? You'll play it down because you've already said it's easy, and I'll have wasted my time showing that you're wrong when even a complete layman could see that that's the case by now.

I'm not going to invest any more time in you. You can pretend that you've defeated me if you like, I think you need it.

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jopo
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

Bulgaria BG

Originally posted by nmz502 That was fun :).

For keeping my entertained this afternoon codergames, you get to watch this NWO video.

I've got a site to finish working on.

Have a nice day.

PS: I understand now why you felt like newgrounds was "hostile". You sound like an angry crazy person.

EDIT: If anyone is tired of this thread, go to that youtube video and leave a comment about something crazy :D. I'll give anyone who does that a vote up on youtube.

X Factor employees are a bunch of retarded phony NWO illuminati poops.

codergames 3 hours ago 2

--- thats one of the comments ....

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Well, let's see: my game doesn't work on your web server, my game is not being pirated, you claim you defeated me by completing a set of simple tasks. Fine.

That's because no one cares about your game enough to bother trying to put a serious effort into hacking it.

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4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames Sure.

Right.

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4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

You know, I got a flu shot, and ever since then I've been feeling dumber, and I've had this arthritis type feeling, and then I went to the doctor and he said I have cancer.

What's wrong with me?

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4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

gio-m
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago) edited 2 years 206 days ago

United States US

Your character is hard to controls and the multiplying enemies is frustrating. So if you are not distributing this game how many hits are you getting?

edit spelling

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nmz502
Sep 26, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Best game idea ever:

Burn pentagon / pentagram, burn. Burn demons, burn

Mwah hahahaha!

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4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

gio-m
Sep 27, 2011 (2 years 206 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by codergames

Originally posted by gio-m Your character is hard to controls and the multiplying enemas is frustrating. So if you are not distributing this game how many hits are you getting?

There are no enemas happening in any of my games.

I am sorry my spelling is really bad but i think my real problem is that i don't proofread what i write. I meant enemies

4399.com has a pirated copy of my game

kreso
Dec 22, 2011 (2 years 120 days ago)

My game showed up on their portal 5 days ago, and started to get really good traffic. Two days later it stopped so I thought they removed it from front page or something like that. I went to check how was my game rated to find out it was pirated.

What I did was - I sent email to the 2 addresses posted earlier in this post saying something to the effect: I will start contacting your sponsors, hosting company, domain registrar if you don't remove it within 24 hours or replace it with Mochi version (and I provided links). Soon enough they removed it. As far as I can see there is a Mochi version of my game on their site now.

Problem solved it seems.

Thanks guys who found these 2 emails and the guy thinking about how to 'get' to these people (mention 4399's business partners).

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