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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago) edited 4 years 249 days ago

United States US

It looks an awful lot like they've ported a Game Boy emulator in order to monetize commercial games to me:

http://www.playr.org/games/page/12

I don't get the feeling that they have a deal with Nintendo to put these games out. There is no press about playr, and Nintendo probably wouldn't say "Hey guys, what we really need is to work with a company that will put all of our intellectual property on a cheap-looking Flash portal page with somebody else's branding".

It's not just Nintendo's IP either. Capcom is amongst the other publisher names.

Playr also has a MochiAds account, where they seem to be monetizing public domain ROMs.

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egdcltd
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

That... looks kind of dubious at best.

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hatu
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

Finland FI

Nintendo is very strict about their property. There's no way that's legal.

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United States US

I am also very unhappy about other people's unlicensed content being profited from (as seen in playr's Mochi account).

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OliverKO
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

South Africa ZA

If it doesn't say Nintendo on the box, it isn't Nintendo in the box!

Definitely not legit, and once Nintendo finds out, they'll do everything they can to bring it down, which means it's probably as good as shut down.

Are we seeing the light of a dead site, casting its visage across millions of kilometres of cables before its collapse is emitted for all of Mother Internet to see?

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asterick
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United States US

@wm:

Some of my friends's (PD) game images have surfaced on there. I must say that I wasn't terribly happy to see that happen.

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retrone
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

Actually it is 100% legal under the fair use portion of the DMCA because there are carts owned for all the games listed and the site acts as an archive for products no longer sold, supported or indeed.. already generally available.

As for the public domain games, well aside from the fact that they are public domain (and without modification), you might have noticed they all carry the BUNG logo, that is because they were entered into the Bung Enterprises game coding competition. One of the criteria was that the entrant released their control on distribution and we only started using those games once we contacted the owners of the now defunct Bung (some of whom now operate First Union Technology) and they gave us the thumbs up. I should probably mention that we were ourselves entrants of both the BUNG and Lik Sang competitions that ran between the period of 1999 and 2001.

As for us getting shut down, well that would be hard since the precedent ALREADY EXISTS in US and UK law, anyway they should probably start with a site like vnes which has more traffic and has 3 years under it's belt. I'm sure you can find Nintedo's contact details if our website bothers you, I believe they are already aware of our lawyers' contact details at Clifford Chance.

There are also technical considerations that legalise our service more than the average, because the software was designed to be used within the letter of the law, but I won't get into all that. Just ask yourself what the technical definition of emulator is and if any money is being made on any embedded content or on the service itself.

There is no shred of a doubt that we are in grey area, that was the point, it's controversial, it gets the resident smart guy mentioning your URL on a forum or a blog. It was bound to happen eventually, it was either us or some corporate leeches, if you knew more about us, our history, motivations and mind-set, I doubt any of this would be a problem for you. No money is pocketed by anyone and what money is generated goes to ensure the survival of the service ONLY, if and when there is a surplus it is donated to SightSavers International, registered charity numbers 207544 and SC038110. The service was started on donations.

I thought it was a good idea personally, gamers get games, old school indy game developers get exposure for work that would have otherwise died and you guys get to look good compared to dusty old pixelated games. We are on the right side of the law but more importantly our own moral compass.

playR.org

P.S. If your friend has a problem with his work getting seen, we will of course glady remove it promtly if you have him email us.

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago) edited 4 years 249 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone There is no shred of a doubt that we are in grey area, that was the point, it's controversial, it gets the resident smart guy mentioning your URL on a forum or a blog. It was bound to happen eventually, it was either us or some corporate leeches, if you knew more about us, our history, motivations and mind-set, I doubt any of this would be a problem for you. No money is pocketed by anyone and what money is generated goes to ensure the survival of the service ONLY, if and when there is a surplus it is donated to SightSavers International, registered charity numbers 207544 and SC038110. The service was started on donations.

Yeah, we all think you're Robin Hood.

Originally posted by retrone There are also technical considerations that legalise our service more than the average, because the software was designed to be used within the letter of the law, but I won't get into all that. Just ask yourself what the technical definition of emulator is and if any money is being made on any embedded content or on the service itself.

And if you own a the original game and delete the file within 30 days it's legal too, right? Pfft. And where does the game binary come from? The ether? It doesn't matter if you wrap it up like a taco, it doesn't change a thing.

This is what you get when the media pays heed to organisations like The Pirate Party, legitimising their little clubs because they can make it sound morally acceptable if enough of them bleat about it in unison. What crooks.

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retrone
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

After re-reading a comment above I would just like to iterate that licenses/permission have and will be obtained for all the content we distribute, everything else however, is on the site only, as per the letter of the law.

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Beno
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

Costa Rica CR

My favourite bit is where you disguise a Google ad as a game down the bottom. I sent a screenshot to Google.

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retrone
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

Thanks, Google suggested we do it, it's called blending and has 2 labels to mention it is advertising.

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago) edited 4 years 249 days ago

United States US

Haha, an excuse for everything.

You're fooling nobody. Just look at the site, it's clearly designed to make revenue. You beg for sponsors, you try for link exchanges, and frankly hosting just isn't that expensive. You don't need all of this just to pay for the hosting. No.

I find it hard to believe that you're anything but crooks. Your "it's for the fans and we don't make any profit" is just a front developed from what you've gleaned on this page. It's transparent and weak.

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United States US

But hey, at least you remembered to add a copyright notice for your content! We wouldn't want that to get stolen now, would we? Some if it is even made by you!

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egdcltd
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I didn't think aligning images with Google ads was allowed any longer.

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Beno
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

Costa Rica CR

Originally posted by retrone Thanks, Google suggested we do it, it's called blending and has 2 labels to mention it is advertising.

Google explicitly disallows it. As of ages ago when all those instant arcades/myspace/other made for ad crap the kids were spewing out to sell on sitepoint started doing it.

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United States US

Here is their host's terms and conditions: http://www.justhost.com/terms-and-conditions?hidenav

Here are the ones that they blatantly break:

"Hosting of files or other data that infringes on another's copyright or other intellectual property rights." "Offering video and/or audio streaming or downloads, MP3 Files, Games and shareware is also not permitted on any Just Host server."

Here is the e-mail address to complain to: support [at] justhost.com

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retrone
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago) edited 4 years 249 days ago

If the ad is problematic I will have the software modified. The CTR is nothing anyway and I had seen the idea on a site that picked up a game from Mochi called FootyFlash, I assume you will be this passionate when you inform them of their mistakes.

WM: Yes, remember I was the one who told you of VNES just a few minutes ago and went on to mention you were not aware of our history. Save the 4000 post stuff for someone else please, I have already seen your comments on AI . I don't care to have some WikiPedia battle, I'm probably getting old and want to go to bed rather than sit up all night to defend an idea. We aren't doing anything wrong, but if you want to shut us down it's going to take lawyers and money, not bullshit.

Our host is obviously aware of us, and we have had this discussion before. We can run without ads, we have money to float it, it would just be nice if it could be sustainable, either way, the site will stay up, because the law is the law.

Sweet dreams and thanks for the link!

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United States US

So your arguments are "Hah, you didn't realise our bullshit legal stance until we exposed it" (or to paraphrase "Nyah nyah, you didn't get it straight away!") and "our illegal activities are legal"?

I think you must be so very old that you've gone all the way around and come out as a seven year old.

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retrone
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

Yes WM, you did it, you exposed our evil ways, super WM to the rescue[/sarcasm]. There, ego stroked, argument won, now go to bed, life's too short.

P.S. The service is legal, if anybody would like to contact us, you can find the email address on the site.

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npgames
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 249 days ago)

United States US

holy crap this dude is retarted, really liked the ad on the bottom, had to search for it.

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JamesQuinn
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

i dont like when people make a profit from taking the hard work of others

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archbob
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Its not very different from the thousands of Mario or Sonic fansites/gamesites out there. Looks like they changed the google ad thing though.

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npgames
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

why, i thought Google TOLD them it was a good idea

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npgames
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

LOL, they have been suspended! good job WM

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retrone
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

sigh Just got pinged awake to be told. Ridiculous.. The content isn't even hosted on the server, as you failed to realize, we will obviously sort this out and be back up, or simply switch host, but that will have to wait till morning. The site doesn't even make money, heh, definately not worth losing sleep over.

I changed the ad because someone objected to it and educated me of the NEW terms since April of this year, I just hope they can inform FootyFlash of the same thing.

Oh yeah, WE MAKE GAMES TOO. Have fun.

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voidSkipper
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Australia AU

Awkward.

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

I'm not interested in playing a vindictive game of cat and mouse. If you had no involvement with Mochi or Flash I would have ignored you entirely. I won't pretend I've never downloaded a game ROM! But you're cheapening things. You're making Flash developers look bad. You're making Flash publishers look bad. You're taking advantage of whatever assets you can get your hands on, in the worst possible way. You are incredibly hostile and childish about this. A million "you clearly haven't realised"s and "you didn't even know"s - we're not interested in the minutiae of what you do and how you do it. We're interested in not having good technologies (Alchemy, emulator ports, MochiAds) being represented by this.

Where the ROMs are isn't an issue for me. I don't care if you hosted the ROMs on my sister. It really doesn't matter to anybody who isn't trying to weave their way around copyright laws.

(Perhaps you don't use Alchemy and in fact wrote the emulator yourself. It wouldn't match your track record though!)

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DrRobot
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Apparently their account has been suspended by their host.

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archbob
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Originally posted by NPGam.es why, i thought Google TOLD them it was a good idea

Google suspends people for these kinds of things, do you think google actually wrote them and told them it was a good idea?

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wm
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by retrone Oh yeah, WE MAKE GAMES TOO. Have fun.

Let me know when you release something of your own. I can't wait to put ads on it and not credit you in any way.

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Crazy Ninja
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

so what about all the games out there like Dig Dug.....does that mean people are going to get their sites shutdown for hosting them?

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npgames
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

Originally posted by NPGam.es why, i thought Google TOLD them it was a good idea

Google suspends people for these kinds of things, do you think google actually wrote them and told them it was a good idea?

was joking

i like how his excuse was it wasnt on that server

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fishhf
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Hong Kong HK

Originally posted by wm (Perhaps you don't use Alchemy and in fact wrote the emulator yourself. It wouldn't match your track record though!)

The emulator better not be GPLd.

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azza3809
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Originally posted by DrRobot Apparently their account has been suspended by their host.

Their account's been suspended? Does that meen Nintento found out and had their host close them down or force them into bancrupcy through a lawsuit that Nintendo would obviously win?... =|

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BoogaTech
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

P.S. If your friend has a problem with his work getting seen, we will of course glady remove it promtly if you have him email us.

No, you will remove it now without him telling you to. You didn't ask permission, therefore, you have no rights to have them on your website in the first place. Don't pretend you're giving him the "priveledge" of having his work displayed on your website.

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rzn1986
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Netherlands NL

Thank you justice and wm :)

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hatu
Aug 13, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Finland FI

Having a place to play old games online would be awesome but you're using other peoples copyrighted material to make a profit.

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kardenal
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Mexico MX

Originally posted by DrRobot Apparently their account has been suspended by their host.

Their account is not suspended anymore, i can open the page...

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Heh I almost read your victory post but then remembered I didn't give a shit.

The site is back up. The site is borderline, but entirely legal, we have had to secure donations to pay for hardware and original game content, so no, the site doesn't make money (and won't make money for any individual), and even if it did, tough titties because it is legal, ask our lawyers.

All you did was contact a small web host about a TOS violation, we contested and they said it was too hot for them, fair enough, we were only with them for another week anyway whilst our servers were being setup. Well done, you scared a webhost with no backbone, see if our current host responds to anything other than a court order, because that is precisely what it will take, and even then we have measures in place to be back up within hours. This is bigger than you and is Fair Use under the DMCA, I'm not saying in the history of the world the site will never be taken down, but I am saying it will never be taken down by YOU little WM. Legal is legal and some silly uneducated witch hunt on some forum on the internet is not going to do it, so if that is the depth and breadth of your "power", save it.

It's a pity you don't care about copying so much when you are plagiarising your thoughts and idea's when you spend countless hours link mining in order to take some opposition stance with whatever the topic of the day is on some forum. You should spend more time making games and less time talking shit about stuff you have no clue about (like AI and Fair Use).

As one of the people with work represented, I'm glad it gets seen, that is why I released it for free in the first place, that work will remain up. Homebrew developers don't always have the luxury of a reputed distribution system like you do, but that is about to change, we have loads more coming and have been seeking out premium homebrew games that we will be sharing with the world. Legal is legal and you are just a megomaniac with too much time, but I know this has been pointed out to you countless times probably, and I would guess by completely different and unrelated people from all walks of life.

Don't hate the playR, hate the game. http://www.playr.org (more on the way)

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nutter666
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United Kingdom GB

someone contacted nintendo yet?.. i'd love to see his smug face change as the cease and desist dropped through the door/email inbox

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rhu
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I might be putting this offtopic but I really do like Mattahans work, his icon sets are truely awesome. I was never sure if taking art from deviant for commercial websites was accepted, and I never got round to shooting the guy an e-mail asking.

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npgames
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

man i hate how smug he is about getting away with this

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Just as a last reply, so I don't have to keep coming back. All legal enquiries can be sent to the email address on the site and/or our host (whichever is easier), financial information is available on request. Media is owned for everything you see on the site and permission/licenses have been obtained for all content distributed. Donations of new media are always welcome.

Thanks, playR.org

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kardenal
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Mexico MX

taken from http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#helping

Can Websites and/or Internet Content Providers be Held Liable for Violation of Intellectual Property Rights if they are Only Providing Links to Illegal Software and/or Other Illegal Devices?

Yes. Personal Websites and/or Internet Content Providers sites That link to Nintendo ROMs, Nintendo emulators and/or illegal copying devices can be held liable for copyright and trademark violations, regardless of whether the illegal software and/or devices are on their site or whether they are linking to the sites where the illegal items are found.

How Do I Report Potential Infringements to Nintendo Products?

To report infringing items on internet auction sites, please call us at 1-800-255-3700 or e-mail us at auctionpiracy@noa.nintendo.com

To report ROM sites, emulators, Game Copiers, Counterfeit manufacturing, or other illegal activities, please call us at 1-800-255-3700 or e-mail us at piracyscene@noa.nintendo.com

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone Heh I almost read your victory post but then remembered I didn't give a shit.

Ah, I'm just not reading the rest. Nobody is allowed to be as arrogant or as rude as me. That sort of behaviour disgusts me.

All I can tell you is that you are fooling nobody. Come on, you couldn't even bring yourself to mark those PD ROMs as what they were. You were trying to pass them off as your own, original games. Any claims of "We just want these games to be seen" are pure shit.

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Sorry, I did completly forget to mention that the text on Nintendo's website flies directly in the face of Fair Use under the DMCA which has been tried and tested numerous times. This is all available online for public consumption should you choose to educate yourself.

I do believe that about covers it for us, feel free to take up any problems you might have with whomever you wish.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by rhu I might be putting this offtopic but I really do like [Mattahans][1] work, his icon sets are truely awesome. I was never sure if taking art from deviant for commercial websites was accepted, and I never got round to shooting the guy an e-mail asking.

[1]: http://mattahan.deviantart.com/art/G-A-N-T-3035321

Fantastic!

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npgames
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

so he even jacked his icons?

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by fishhf

Originally posted by wm (Perhaps you don't use Alchemy and in fact wrote the emulator yourself. It wouldn't match your track record though!)

The emulator better not be GPLd.

I was wondering this. I looked at their SWFs but couldn't find any identifying marks.

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rhu
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by fishhf

Originally posted by wm (Perhaps you don't use Alchemy and in fact wrote the emulator yourself. It wouldn't match your track record though!)

The emulator better not be GPLd.

I was wondering this. I looked at their SWFs but couldn't find any identifying marks.

I tried a game on the site and got thrown an Alchemy error message.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

Thanks rhu!

[object AlchemyExit]
at ()
at ()
at swfboy::Emulator/initEmulator()
at swfboy::Emulator/init()
at swfboy::Emulator/emulate()
at swfboy::Emulator/render()


TypeError: Error #1009: Cannot access a property or method of a null object reference.
at swfboy::Emulator/render()

swfboy is a port of gnuboy. gnuboy and swfboy are under the GPL. playr is distributing a modified version of this without providing their own source code, or providing a copy of the license, or stating that the code is under the GPL, which—GASP—is illegal. I'm sure they'll say it's not illegal because they once saw a duck and I'm an idiot for not realising this earlier, so that will be fun. Ooh, I bet you'll use that "linking as an external library" argument.

WOW, you guys have stolen from at least four separate entities at this point.

Mochi? Will you pull the plug on this?

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

LOL, we made swfBoy and it is no port of any SINGLE emulator. I guess whilst you were too busy copying and pasting from that flimsy google reference you forgot to check that there is NEVER BEEN CODE SUBMITTED THERE. You might want to look at github for the source code.

Whatever Mochi might decide, the site stays up. Everything on Mochi is 100% legal, of course, and we have expressed that to them (much) earlier. Regardless, this is something that gets dealt with in an objective, legal and fair manner and not on a forum with some teenage ego trip.

Thanks kindly for talking shit that I could just not let lie, I guess you plan to do this all night, well alright then fella Google away, just be sure to remember that in the eyes of the law, it will take facts and not assumptions.

As you were.

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Oh yeah... playR :)

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npgames
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

why put your link in every post, mochi has nofollow

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

http://github.com/search?q=swfboy&type=Everything&repo=&langOverride=&start_value=1

Maybe you could enlighten me. I know, I'm an idiot, etc. etc. it's all very hurtful I'm sure.

The fact that it is an Alchemy port (what, you write this in C to begin with rather than just having ported gnuboy as swfboy's only web reference explicitly states? I DEFINITELY BELIEVE THAT) and that you're terrible thieves who can't successfully lie about anything doesn't fill me with promise.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

And I'm not claiming this is law. This is the detective work part.

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Khanduras
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Hey, it's all good. I've already contacted the legal departments of both Nintendo as well as Sega, who both stated they'd investigate the matter further. Frivolous or not, I figured it couldn't hurt to just make them aware of the situation at hand.

In the meantime, who wants some buttered popcorn?

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egdcltd
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by Khanduras In the meantime, who wants some buttered popcorn?

Got any toffee popcorn instead?

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nutter666
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United Kingdom GB

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

EDIT - Toffee popcorn please!

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rzn1986
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Netherlands NL

Wow, you have toffee popcorn now? I'm getting old.

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egdcltd
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by rzn1986 Wow, you have toffee popcorn now? I'm getting old.

Now? Butterkist Toffee Popcorn has been around for years here.

EDIT: Now I'm hungry.

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Khanduras
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

You kids and your pre-popped popcorn.

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asterick
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

@wm:

swfboy is released under LGPL, not GPL. He is not doing anything wrong there. Strictly FYI.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

If it's the same swfboy as the only reference on the 'net I can find, it's based on gnuboy which is GPL.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

I really can't find a reference to a LGPLed swfboy.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=swfboy&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The only two relevant results are that page I quoted earlier (which said it's GPL) and this very thread.

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Oknavi™
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

I

Originally posted by Khanduras Hey, it's all good. I've already contacted the legal departments of both Nintendo as well as Sega, who both stated they'd investigate the matter further. Frivolous or not, I figured it couldn't hurt to just make them aware of the situation at hand.

In the meantime, who wants some buttered popcorn?

I DO!!!

I love this stuff.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by wm I really can't find a reference to a LGPLed swfboy.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=swfboy&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The only two relevant results are that page I quoted earlier (which said it's GPL) and this very thread.

I've also decompiled one of playr's games. In the exported Alchemy assets are functions from gnuboy that I recognise, just from memory. For example, lcd_begin, cpu_emulate lcd_refreshline... this is undoubtedly the GPL-licensed gnuboy. Undoubtedly. playr cannot be trusted. He claimed that he didn't even use code from any emulator, but as soon as I decompiled Deep Scan I found a million functions that I recognise by heart. fishhf will recognise them too, and hey, go download the gnuboy source and you'll see what I mean.

He's guilty as hell.

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Khanduras
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

I do believe this would make playR/retrone what I would consider "air tight." I'd show a picture for those who don't understand what I mean, but it definitely wouldn't be appropriate for these forums. I guess "taking it from every angle" would be a better explanation.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

I mean, just look at this. First, the decompile of vram_write from playr's code:

var _loc_1:int;
var _loc_2:int;
var _loc_3:int;
var _loc_4:int;
esp = esp - 4;
ebp = esp;
esp = esp - 0;
_loc_1 = ;
_loc_2 =  + 79;
_loc_3 = _loc_2 & 1;
_loc_3 = _loc_3 << 13;
_loc_4 = ebp + 8;
_loc_1 = _loc_1 + _loc_3;
_loc_3 = ebp + 12;
_loc_1 = _loc_1 + _loc_4;
if (_loc_4 <= 6143)
{
    _loc_1 = ;
    _loc_2 = _loc_2 << 9;
    _loc_3 = _loc_4 >> 4;
    _loc_2 = _loc_2 & 512;
    _loc_2 = _loc_2 + _loc_3;
    _loc_3 = 1;
    _loc_1 = _loc_1 + _loc_2;
}
esp = ebp;
ebp = esp;
esp = esp + 4;
esp = esp + 4;
return;

The esp and ebp stuff at the top and bottom is C's calling convention stuff, I think. Read the bits inbetween.

Next, the same function from the original C code in gnuboy:

void vram_write(addr a, byte b)
{
    lcd.vbank[R_VBK&1][a] = b;
    if (a >= 0x1800) return;
    patdirty[((R_VBK&1)<<9)+(a>>4)] = 1;
    anydirty = 1;
}

You don't need to be too familiar with the internals of Flash to compare those two. Every gnuboy-named function correlates to the original source in the same way. At this point it's no longer just detective work. The words "reasonable doubt" are now very relevant.

playr, you now have a GNU license violation on your plate too.

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SSilver2k2
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Lo all. In terms of full disclosure, I am not a lawyer. I have worked for a State Senate, have written laws, and have my degree around the field of government and statutes. I have also worked on websites as a programmer which have had to take into account Fair Use, Streaming Media, and Song Royalties.

So in regards to retrone, you are flat out, WRONG.

First of all, in regards to fair use, Fair use is decided on a case by case basis, on the entirety of circumstances. The same act done by different means or for a different purpose can gain or lose fair use status. Even repeating an identical act at a different point in time can make a difference due to changing social, technological, or other surrounding circumstances.

So just because you state that there is precedent on your fair use claim, it can be thrown out like a baby's diaper.

Second, just because you claim that you are not able to purchase these games so you are making them available is a complete load. Copyright and Trademark law exists so that the rights holders, IE, Nintendo, Capcom, Midway, Sega, etc can decide when and how to use thier franchises and IP.

As can be seen on your site, Mortal Kombat is a game that is currently able to be played. Midway/Acclaim are still using their IP for current games, ie MK vs DC and the upcoming MK6.

As you have clearly just put up the entire game without any changes, you are not protected under any doctrines of fair use. You have not shown it to be a parody, or any derivative work (unlike those fan made versions of sonic the hedgehog).

I am sure you will come up with some way to say FAIR USE again, so I will not attempt to rebut any more of your nonsense. I will say that the Game Industry is one of the fastest growing (and currently) one of the top fields in entertainment. You picked the wrong companies to copy data from, for they are like dragons, and you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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nutter666
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Wonder if Retrone has a webcam.. I wanna see his face when he gets sued...

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by nutter666 Wonder if Retrone has a webcam.. I wanna see his face when he gets sued...

I doubt that will happen. These companies would be bankrupt if they had to go after all the small fry.

I just want him away from anything I'm involved in. At this point I am trying to make a case to show that he is distributing GPLed software illegally on Mochi's network.

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BrightWave
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by retrone LOL, we made swfBoy and it is no port of any SINGLE emulator.

so wm I guess retrone's defense is that he stole from multiple emulators... either way he looks guilty to me.

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Jesus, so you are going to do this all night, I was only kidding. OK well fair enough, if you believe the site is unlawful, please do make use of the whatever systems are in place but it is going to take more than an angry email, you will actually have to take us to court and win until ALL appeals have been lost. You are on the outside looking in, just remember that, if you weren't you would have hardly started this topic (which is great for clicks thanks).

Somebody contacted Sega eh? Boy aren't they going to be pissed that they aren't represented on our site. I guess that stupid comment goes to show you how biased you are that you would "act" before doing any homework at all, but the site is still up.

Oh and MK6 is not MK for a system that is obsolete. Wave your hands around all you want, shout, scream, write to the State Senate, your local MP, your fire marshal, Nintendo, Sega, Google and anyone else you wish to spread the name to, the site will stay up.

I'm sure mochi know where we can be contacted and so should all of you if you have any issues. I don't want to keep repeating myself so I'll leave it there and thank you for your time.

Adios

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nutter666
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

didn't he already said he was leaving already?

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Khanduras
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone Somebody contacted Sega eh? Boy aren't they going to be pissed that they aren't represented on our site. I guess that stupid comment goes to show you how biased you are that you would "act" before doing any homework at all, but the site is still up.

Let's see. I do believe I saw some images which clearly had the Genesis brand on them, so I DO believe Sega has some say in the matter - be it a placeholder image or not. The larger companies don't usually enjoy being associated with illegal activities.

Edit: Removed, for I'm a dunce that apparently misused grammar to fabricate a thought of... something or other? Whatever. ;p

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Gordon
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Khanduras

By the way... creating a second account on the forums to pose as a legal advisor? How pathetic is that?

Er, if you are referring to the post by SSilver2k2 he clearly said he wasn't a lawyer, and was in fact rebutting retrone's claims of Fair Use.

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Khanduras
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by gordon

Originally posted by Khanduras

By the way... creating a second account on the forums to pose as a legal advisor? How pathetic is that?

Er, if you are referring to the post by SSilver2k2 he clearly said he wasn't a lawyer, and was in fact rebutting retrone's claims of Fair Use.

Noticed that. Corrected the post above just a tad before you had posted, but I'm on vacation using a shitty internet connection which takes forever to post. :p

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Yeah you are a dunce because the content is from our content partner, Giant Bomb, who we have entered into an agreement with. But it's ok, you're on holiday with a shitty internet connection...

I think the above posts sum it up quite nicely for me, I do appologise for coming back, I just don't want to let bullshit be spewed as truth and I do believe we have a right of reply but this is hardly worth it.

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

What about this emulator that you "wrote yourself", the one that is clearly using gnuboy's code?

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nutter666
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

thats obvious WM

he found it in a tutorial.. downloaded the source code... so made it himself!

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Khanduras
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago) edited 4 years 248 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone Yeah you are a dunce because the content is from our content partner, Giant Bomb, who we have entered into an agreement with. But it's ok, you're on holiday with a shitty internet connection...

I think the above posts sum it up quite nicely for me, I do appologise for coming back, I just don't want to let bullshit be spewed as truth and I do believe we have a right of reply but this is hardly worth it.

Way to instigate things.

Anyway, where you got the content from holds no weight whatsoever. That's like someone trying to defend themselves against having a child pornography site by saying "but we got the content from somewhere else!" Does it matter? No. Not at all. You're still hosting it.

Note: Now I'm starting to think that air tight reference isn't just a metaphor...

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JamesQuinn
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

thank you wm for not backing down against this jerk

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fishhf
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

Hong Kong HK

Originally posted by wm What about this emulator that you "wrote yourself", the one that is clearly using gnuboy's code?

Just compare the bytecodes of the swf file of my fgnuboy and you would have the answer. But maybe he did contact the guy who made gnuboy?

Originally posted by retrone LOL, we made swfBoy and it is no port of any SINGLE emulator.

hmmmm

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BoogaTech
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 248 days ago)

United States US

While a quick whois search didn't reveal much, it did reveal who he registered the domain to - Pipe DNS

Their terms of service page includes a list of things you can't do with their services, as well as various means of contacting them.

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Originally posted by BoogaTech While a [quick whois search][1] didn't reveal much, it did reveal who he registered the domain to - [Pipe DNS][2]

Their [terms of service page][3] includes a list of things you can't do with their services, as well as various means of contacting them.

[1]: http://www.whois.net/whois/playr.org [2]: http://www.pipedns.com/ [3]: http://www.pipedns.com/terms

Wow... I wonder how long it will be before you realize whois.net caches results, pipedns is owned by the company that WM had already contacted and that the terms of service you refer to is mentioning hosting (in a manner they say was designed for the average joe to read).

I realize most of you have scraped your education on this topic from some vague blog or the comments pages of SlashDot, but please let me show you what it will even take before anybody even looks your way:

  1. The electronic or physical signature of the rights holder in the copyright or the person authorized to act on behalf of that person;
  2. Identification of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed;
  3. An identification of the material that is claimed to be infringing, and information reasonably sufficient to permit third parties to locate the material EXACTLY (for example, by providing a URL to the EXACT material); or, if applicable, identification of the reference or link to material or activity claimed to be infringing, and information reasonably sufficient to permit third parties to locate that reference or link;
  4. Your name, address, telephone number, and email address;
  5. A statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright rights holder, its agent, or the law; and
  6. A statement that the information in your notification is accurate and a statement, made under penalty of perjury, that you are the rights holder or are authorized to act on the behalf of the rights holder.

Once we get to that point, we will obviously see you in court as I am sure you are all aware that the DMCA protects the consumer as well as rights holder, this is not the first time we have dabbled in this area, the law is the law I'm afraid, you don't control the internet, the users do and they seem to be perfectly happy.

To paraphrase WM, why would we waste our time on threats with no teeth? I guess WM knows this and that is why he is seeking a small victory of trying to prove mallace on Mochi only, we are obviously provoking you at this point but that is simply because 1) Legal is legal 2) We are on mochi for links (which only make up under a percent of total daily traffic), something we could achieve alone (albeit at the cost of our own time) 3) We have no illegal content on Mochi 4) We feel secure in the knowledge Mochi would contact us and allow us to state facts we simply won't divulge to a teenager on a forum (who talks shit about things like AI to look like a real software engineer) and 5) 3 people involved in this project already have games on Mochi, so WM, you will still be involved in something we are (if you can call what you do being involved).

Talk us up all you want. To take us down you would literally need to reform copyright laws internationally to the detriment of the consumer and back track on 24 years of IP law... but good luck with that.

playR.org

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BoogaTech
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

You flatter yourself. You spend more time writing insults than I did looking up your domain on whois.org

I hope you feel proud of yourself.

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Originally posted by BoogaTech You flatter yourself. You spend more time writing insults than I did looking up your domain on whois.org

I hope you feel proud of yourself.

I'm merely defending a legal service against nonsensical allegations that have been scraped together by 2 minute web searches like the one you just mentioned. Anyway, we are in no way discouraging people from using the systems that are in place to protect consumers, creators and publishers, infact we welcome it (it's just a pity that with all the "experts" in the room, this is your chosen medium).

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wm
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone Talk us up all you want. To take us down you would literally need to reform copyright laws internationally to the detriment of the consumer and back track on 24 years of IP law... but good luck with that.

I can reform anything I like, as long as I own an original copy and delete the reform within 24 hours.

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npgames
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by retrone To paraphrase WM, why would we waste our time on threats with no teeth

then why the long posts

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retrone
Aug 14, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Originally posted by NPGam.es

Originally posted by retrone To paraphrase WM, why would we waste our time on threats with no teeth

then why the long posts

I believe it is a concept known as right of reply. This is getting a bit too "forumy" for me, feel free to email bullshit accusations to us and I'll try my best to make sure someone is standing by to delete them.

P.S. NPGam.es, I'll swallow a little troll bait just for you, the word is "retarded" (oh the irony) and "nofollow" doesn't stop a real life person from clicking a link. G'Night!

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nutter666
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

And now he says he's leaving again... seriously wheres my toffee popcorn!

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Incrue
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

About time mochi shows whats their position

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Moczan
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Poland PL

I like how he calls WM a teenager

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retrone
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Originally posted by Moczan I like how he calls WM a teenager

Thanks, I liked that bit too. If he isn't he has my appologies and pity.

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CrookedAlley
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

Canada CA

Originally posted by retrone

I'm leaving, no I'm back.... OK Bye forever... Oh, now I'm back. Ok, now I'm leaving for good... oh wait... I'm back...

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retrone
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

and I'm back to say how cute I think it is that you had to edit a one line post 3 minutes after making it. How priveledged I am to be in the presense of such learned and objectional people with such insight into the laws.

With a double dose of sarcasm

I will always defend these ideals because they are about the end user, I would also like to state that in my personal capacity, I would also defend your right of reply, even if I didn't agree with what you said. Content providers shifted the goals of copyright to the detriment of the consumers (like myself) and homebrew + open source developers and now you want to have a moan like you're in their club? Fair enough, just don't get your panties in a twist when I use my right of reply, or do, they're your panties afterall.

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

United States US

Run a spellchecker through your posts m'dear. It doesn't fit in well with your loveable demeanour to make such elementary errors as "priviledged" and "mallace" after attacking NPGam.es for his spelling.

Any comments on the gnuboy code in your emulator? I can't really be bothered to debate the ethics or legality of the ROM stuff with you anymore, because that debate has a fairly obvious pattern and will clearly go nowhere.

Okay, I'm leaving forever now. Goodbye.

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

Hi guys, I'm back.

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raitendo
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

Originally posted by retrone and I'm back to say how cute I think it is that you had to edit a one line post 3 minutes after making it. How priveledged I am to be in the presense of such learned and objectional people with such insight into the laws.

With a double dose of sarcasm

I will always defend these ideals because they are about the end user, I would also like to state that in my personal capacity, I would also defend your right of reply, even if I didn't agree with what you said. Content providers shifted the goals of copyright to the detriment of the consumers (like myself) and homebrew + open source developers and now you want to have a moan like you're in their club? Fair enough, just don't get your panties in a twist when I use my right of reply, or do, they're your panties afterall.

Nobody's been trying to take away your "right of reply" but you come across as rather childish when you keep repeating that you'll never come back and won't reply anymore, yet you keep coming back and you keep replying. Also, what's up with the attitude? If you truly do have a case, argue it instead of behaving like an asshole. You should be aware of that your posts are read by more people than the ones who are replying to you, and to these people you come across as a total twat (no offense intended). I don't see how that's helping you out.

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FullerGames
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Canada CA

Originally posted by wm Hi guys, I'm back.

That one made me laugh.

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retrone
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

I never said I won't ever come back, I simply mention that it is time for me to leave the forum for the day, but as I logout and the page refreshes we get one of your COMPLETELY INACCURATE statements, what would you like me to do? Leave it in the air so you can all make assumptions and spread more misinformation? Perhaps next time you want to take the moral high ground you should question if spreading misinformation is really what you want to be about.

Besides, this is good for general awareness (it's like magical linkbait we don't have to insite), I hope one day WM decides to erroneously oppose himself so he can market his own site/brand effectively and finally get the pennies he seems to hang around for.

Just to further clarify, I am here as long as this topic is active, as I should be, I can't be refreshing every 3 minutes I'm afraid, but I will of course check periodically, if you have a problem with that, I should probably point out that it is YOUR problem.

I would rather be childish than a hypocrite, but that is my personal view and nothing to do with playR.

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by wm Any comments on the gnuboy code in your emulator?

No?

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retrone
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

And actually raitendo, I will give you your due, because you have realized I was talking to THOSE people more so than FORUM people, if I am smug to a forum member who is stating absolute lies and he comes back in quick succession without properly thinking his point/lies through, it shows their character and motivation, I like to believe an objectional party would view those comments as completely skewed and nonsensical (as opposed to impartial and fair) that were driven by ego to be proved right on a forum (and everyone out there has run into Mr 4000 post guy on a forum before). Yeah we might seem like complete assholes because of it but this is not about winning fame.

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

It's like Jake Tucker from Family Guy accidentally swallowed the Pirate Party manifesto.

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retrone
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Yeah WM, I have a very big comment on that actually, but not to you I'm afraid, so send Mochi an email, have them contact me or anyone involved in the site and we will talk about it like rational adults with nice big adult sized facts. I think that is much better, rather than me fielding some 48 hour amateur press conference where you later realize everything you "know" is because I TOLD YOU.

Oh we know you have the time (heh), and we have no doubt you would invest the energy in many angry emails to whomever will bother to read them, but we also know how this works, and NOTHING will get resolved on a forum, at all, ever. I doubt Mochi run their business like that, personally I have never run any business that way (since that would be ILLEGAL) and when that happens it is between Mochi and us.

You need to go do some homework on z80, we know you can read a function name, we know you can post pseudo ASM that you can't understand, but what you don't know could fill the grand canyon.

playR.org

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone Yeah WM, I have a very big comment on that actually, but not to you I'm afraid, so send Mochi an email, have them contact me or anyone involved in the site and we will talk about it like rational adults with nice big adult sized facts. I think that is much better, rather than me fielding some 48 hour amateur press conference where you later realize everything you "know" is because I TOLD YOU.

Or you could just, y'know, give me an answer. Everybody reading this is now going to assume that you have indeed stolen the gnuboy code and lied about it, because you are avoiding answering a simple question! For somebody so interested in defending their ideals and—this is quoting from you now— "[not leaving things in the air] so you can all make assumptions and spread more misinformation" you are not doing a good job of helping me to help you do that.

If you do indeed have the rights to distribute that code, then it would benefit you a great deal—and prove me wrong as a nice side-effect—if you explained that.

You need to go do some homework on z80,

It's not a Z80, it's a cut-down clone of it by Sharp. Certain opcodes are different, and there are far less registers, notably the shadow registers and IX/IY. Also, the code I posted didn't involve the Z80 at all, it was part of the video chip IO.

we know you can read a function name, we know you can post pseudo ASM that you can't understand, but what you don't know could fill the grand canyon.

Hmm. :-)

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raitendo
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

Originally posted by retrone And actually raitendo, I will give you your due, because you have realized I was talking to THOSE people more so than FORUM people [...]

That's not at all what I realized and exactly the opposite of what your postings comes across as. I reminded you other people are reading this because it seems like you're main mode of arguing is through insult - fine if you want to try and agitate any one who opposes you, but it only looks childish and stupid to anybody not involved, and it convinces none.

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retrone
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

And here I thought I could leave you to play amongst yourself for a while.

WM, I do believe if you are involved in any further discussions about this with Mochi and myself or someone imvolved at playR, you will be laughing your ass off at what you just posted, well I will no doubt. Google is your friend eh? Problem is, I am starting to think it's your only friend and that you carry no thoughts of your own.

Raitendo, correct you are, however, that is what I said. I was pretty polite till it got dragged down, I will still be completely respectful to any rational learned comments or to anyone who shows the slightest bit of respect for both myself and the group of people I am here to represent. Otherwise we can just do this little dance (although we don't have the same amount of spare time WM might, we will of course try our best.

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by retrone WM, I do believe if you are involved in any further discussions about this with Mochi and myself or someone imvolved at playR, you will be laughing your ass off at what you just posted, well I will no doubt.

But conveniently the reason is a big fucking secret, eh?

I mean, I've asked you polite to explain what the circumstances are, but you seem hell bent on keeping some secret that you can pull at at some point and say "Haha! You idiot! Didn't you even know that?! HAHAH!". Well, no, of course I didn't know. I asked repeatedly and you just tried to make me look like an idiot for not knowing. Not knowing is the reason why I'm asking (that's how questions work!). Your evasive response just bolsters feelings of mistrust, particularly after you claimed that your emulator doesn't use code from other emulators, and I have shown that it does.

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wm
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

United States US

Mochi, if there is a secret, could you let me in on it?

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Gordon
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

I agree with raitendo. I don't pretend to know the legalities but from what seemed like a reasonable first response you've increasingly become smug, childish and insulting.

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npgames
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

United States US

wow first he talks to google about ads, now he is talking to mochi, im in the wrong business. love the secrets

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voidSkipper
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago) edited 4 years 247 days ago

Australia AU

Originally posted by retrone [implying wm doesn't know z80 assembler]

Heh.

This topic has been one of the most amusing threads I've read in a while.

You come accross as someone who's read far too many press releases from The Pirate Bay.

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garin
Aug 15, 2009 (4 years 247 days ago)

New Zealand NZ

Retrone does come across as a complete pillock.

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

Send an e-mail to nintendo.

If they take legal action, his site will be taken down. If they don't do anything, they probably don't care as this will not hurt their profits one bit. The whole reason these things are copyrighted is to protect the company's future profits. If they don't see this as a threat and don't take any action then they don't think it hurts them.

If the original copyright holder doesn't even care, then its pointless for anyone else to try and bring any legal action against him, because you know, you don't own the copyright. I've never agreed with that law in some countries that you can sue someone on behalf of someone else, always seems stupid to me.

The thing is, this crap is done so often that people don't even bat an eye on this anymore. I doubt a lot of the times that those streetfighter flash developer collabs have permission from capcom, doesn't stop them from doing it and doesn't stop everyone from loving what they do.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

United States US

I'm interested in the quality and reputation (dirty words, I know) of the MochiAds network, mainly. This sort of thing shouldn't be encouraged.

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

Mochi's driven by profits, like most other companies out there. The majority of its developers and publishers are also driven by the same thing. Otherwise you wouldn't see a million dress-up games come out that are all the same.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

United States US

Then it must be OK then.

It's just debate. You don't need to swagger in here after the topic is dead and do your usual bit.

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raitendo
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

Originally posted by archbob The thing is, this crap is done so often that people don't even bat an eye on this anymore. I doubt a lot of the times that those streetfighter flash developer collabs have permission from capcom, doesn't stop them from doing it and doesn't stop everyone from loving what they do.

you can't very well compare stuff like NG's street fighter collab to stuff like this. The street fighter collab is a parody consisting of completely original work - and "retrone" is taking somebody else's copyrighted works and putting it on his site. parody clearly falls under "fair use", I fail to see how what playr.org is doing does (not that I know more than what I read up on Wikipedia, but still).

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

Maybe not ok, but its the way the the business world works. Most successful companies will get away with whatever they can until some judge comes and slaps them upside the head. Every Sonic/Mario fansite that has google adsense banners or any kind of advertisement banner on it is in some way violating Nintendo or Sega's copyright. Sega will sometime give a warning for the site to put a notice that its not related to sega if such sites get too big. Nintendo encourages such fansites, it helps build their base. They won't openly say it and give people to break their copyright, but they realize its one of the ways to grow their fan community.

Every major site including Newgrounds, Kongregate, Armor, and most of the other big portals have mario and/or sonic games on them. So they are also breaching copyright somehow or other, but hey, no one seems to complain about them.

Even if the streetfight collab is a parody, most of the mario/sonic/other copyrighted characters games aren't. They've become too common.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

United States US

I complain about them.

I don't mind parody stuff and the SF joke games on Newgrounds. What I detest are the talentless wastes of space that simply take copyrighted material and make money from it, or build portals based around parody's, which is near enough the same thing.

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

I wouldn't say their wastes of space. They may be wastes of space to you, but alot of people online enjoy these things.

There's an industry that's been born around sites that make use of sega/nintendo/other products and no parent company has bothered to enforce it or showed a shred of evidence for wanting to stop it. All it would take is one email from one of these large companies to get a lot of these sites shut down(an email from nintendo or sega would be a lot more powerful than an email from any of us), but they don't seem to want to do anything. Most of these companies are probably glad there's been a fan community built online based around their product, it probably helps sales of future release titles.

Since the original copyright owners don't mind or may even secretly encourage it, for me, it becomes less of an overarching legal or ethical issue and more of a "do you want to make money in this way?" issue.

Now, I don't like what retrone has done because I've always considered emulators to be largely illegal products because thats what they are used for 99% of the time. But outside of that, it much different from any other fansite or portal that has copyrighted content on it.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

United States US

That's not true at all. It takes more than an e-mail in almost all cases (anything not hosted on some cheapy consumer host that doesn't need the hassle). Obviously it does, because an e-mail is nothing if not backed-up by legal action. The e-mails don't get sent because they it's not worth paying teams of people to do something that accomplishes nothing.

It's not okay to develop a culture where stealing is rewarded. People are beginning to think it is normal. People put their own credits on copyrighted YouTube videos now, as if they should be rewarded for uploading somebody else's work to a web site. No.

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

You realize that most of these sites are hosted on $5.99 cheapy consumer hosts, don't you? You were able to get that guy's host to suspend him with an e-mail. Most of these cheap hosts aren't going to defend their $5.99 clients against a large corporation like Nintendo.

Most of these 'thieves' aren't going to spend more than that on hosting to start these things.

Even if they can't target the individual developers or portals easily, they can target a company like Mochi who is providing a way for these people to make money. But they haven't done that. They can also target a big portal like nonoba which sponsored and featured a mario game for a long time, they haven't done that either. I doubt these would be hard cases to win since it is blantent infringement and they would be able to collect damages from large portals or a company like Mochi. But Nintendo's not stupid, they know they wouldn't make as much money on their new products if they just killed half of their online fan community.

Barking at individual sites or developers is useless, unless you manage to change the fan's own perspective and somehow make them not play these games or somehow cut off revenue streams in that way, its the way things are headed towards. This guy is just the latest one to join. People are going to continue to push until one of the big companies sees it worthwhile to take some kind of action.

On a side note: Nintendo/Sega is very aggressive about pursuing anyone who tries to port their character into any other console or handheld. My guess is that they don't ever see flash games as a market they themselves are going to enter or they see themselves benefitting from the communities that have grown up somehow.

I'm sure Mochi realizes there's risk in approving these games, but they just don't think its anything to worry about because of whats done before.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

United States US

No, it's not stupid at all. I know you love to pop up and tell people off for doing things that you think won't bring action, but keep it to yourself in the future!

Because of this thread I was able to:

1) Link the emulator to illegal source code, and track down the original authors of the emulators. We'll see if that leads anywhere.
2) Expose an online crook's attitudes and lies in a public forum.
3) Have a chat with some Mochi guys and learn their position on things like this.
4) Help maintain vigilance against people like this. (scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit, but I believe it's important)

What, I ask, is the point of you popping up to say that it's stupid to talk about something? If this is all too close to home I'm sorry, but you'll have to learn to ignore it.

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

Lets look at all your points?

1)I doubt this will accomplish anything. I've already stated that I think emulators are themselves built for illegal purposes so the original emulator was something made for illegal purposes in the first place.

2)There's a lot of people doing what he does, you just chose to bring his case to attention. Sooner or later, people will forget about this, it won't stop him, and it doesn't actually achieve anything.

3) You already knew their position on this. That was apparent when we had that discussing on them accepting that dragon ball Kart game from like a year ago.

4) Like I said, there's a lot of people doing this, some developer on this forum have probably worked on or collaborted in games that use nintendo or sega sprites. You just chose to target one person.

I think its fine to inform people on a forum and debate about this but different people are going to have different opinions on this. I just came in here to express my view.

After all:

It's just debate. You don't need to swagger in here after the topic is dead and do your usual bit.

Seems to me, you just don't want anyone who has a different view from you to save anything.

I just find it ironic that people like to point out one person when there's been a ton of people doing this for years.

Well, then again, I guess it is like my topic about mofunzone's activities.

Do I agree with retrone? No, but I don't agree with you either.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

United States US

Nobody is interested in what you think is useful. Join in with the actual topic, make a new topic called "How useful is Wayne's topic?" and see how long it lasts, or troll somewhere else.

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archbob
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

Originally posted by wm Nobody is interested in what you think is useful. Join in with the actual topic, make a new topic called "How useful is Wayne's topic?" and see how long it lasts, or troll somewhere else.

Guess thats your answer to everything once there's one person who doesn't share you opinion on a certain topic entirely. I did join the topic, but not by you definition of joining the topic which is "agree with me and tell him how wrong he is for doing this."

I find it a pretty predictable behavior of your to say "no one is interested in your opinion" if it strongly conflicts with your own.

Just because I think something is useless doesn't mean I don't think there should be thread about it.

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wm
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago) edited 4 years 245 days ago

United States US

I have responded to the parts of your posts that were on topic. As you now only want to talk about something that is not on topic I'm asking you nicely to do it somewhere else. Please, make a different thread thread about how useless you think this thread is. It doesn't bother me.

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Tony - MouseHog
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

United States US

someone robbed my store the other day, I know the guy, he's a member of my community and I was gonna report it the authorities and other people in the community that might be interested. But then I remembered what archbob told me once:

Originally posted by archbob 2)There's a lot of people doing what he does, you just chose to bring his case to attention. Sooner or later, people will forget about this, it won't stop him, and it doesn't actually achieve anything.

thanks for the hot tip archbob, that makes so much sense, and I have new found perspective so the next time my store gets robbed I won't feel so pissed about it!

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voidSkipper
Aug 17, 2009 (4 years 245 days ago)

Australia AU

Oh my godddd go away Archbob.

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rachid1984
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago)

United States US

Does the original poster have permission to use Cartoon Network's material?

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npgames
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago)

United States US

why?

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wm
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago) edited 4 years 242 days ago

United States US

Hah, the Mooninites in SquareBol? I'll think that actually does count as fair use (it's a joke, see: the game is about squares, and the Moominites are square alien things). That's clearly a tribute. If they were in any way annoyed by it, WHICH THEY WOULDN'T BE, I would take it down without a moment's notice.

I am currently working with Cartoon Network! Maybe I'll ask them on your behalf, eh?

You silly sausage.

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npgames
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago)

United States US

wm your insults need to be reset again. hold the power down for 8 seconds

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rachid1984
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago)

United States US

I understand it wasn't meant to be some sort of theft. But regardless of how you put it, fair use or not, you're still making money using direct art, sound, and intellectual property of someone else.

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wm
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago) edited 4 years 242 days ago

United States US

I don't put "fond tribute" and "blatant theft" (i.e. playr's stuff) in the same category. The assets I'm using are in no way the focus of the game, and I doubt they affect the profit in any way.

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rachid1984
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago)

United States US

Agreed, there's nothing really drawing people to the game with those assets... although I may revisit the game just to see the guest stage again ;)

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wm
Aug 19, 2009 (4 years 242 days ago)

United States US

I was worried for a minute that you were a friend of playr coming to take me on, but you're reasonable and amusing, so I guess not!

SquareBol was actually mostly made by a buddy of mine who I was trying to teach some game programming ideas to. As recompense he let me distribute the game.

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CrookedAlley
Aug 29, 2009 (4 years 233 days ago)

Canada CA

Sorry to call attention to this thread again, but I just noticed this.

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Oknavi™
Aug 29, 2009 (4 years 232 days ago)

United States US

=)

^ That's my face right there. Anyone else? High Fives all around.

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npgames
Aug 29, 2009 (4 years 232 days ago)

United States US

well this should be a warning. dont fuck with wm

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FullerGames
Aug 29, 2009 (4 years 232 days ago)

Canada CA

Originally posted by npgames well this should be a warning. dont fuck with wm

Really? I think the warning would be to make your own work!

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wm
Aug 30, 2009 (4 years 232 days ago)

United States US

My guess is that the took it down voluntarily because they didn't get the traffic they needed, or they're just changing the site and playr will pop in to tell us that we're idiots for not knowing his intentions.

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voidSkipper
Aug 30, 2009 (4 years 232 days ago)

Australia AU

Unfortunately that's quite likely. Even if he has been handed a cease and desist, I doubt he'd admit it.

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FullerGames
Aug 30, 2009 (4 years 232 days ago)

Canada CA

Originally posted by wm My guess is that the took it down voluntarily because they didn't get the traffic they needed, or they're just changing the site and playr will pop in to tell us that we're idiots for not knowing his intentions.

Well, y'know..we are idiots. We should be able to read his mind.

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