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How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

flashgamemaker
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Mochi coins looks like a great way for devs to earn extra income but only if it's possible to get those games on high traffic sites and/or spread far and wide. So far at least it's looking like this will not be possible, so I wondering if anyone has suggestions of what portals DO accept mochi coins? and idea's for how to distribute mochi coin enabled games?

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Israel (CerebralGames)
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago)

Chile CL

just some small portion of portals doesn't accept them. That portals are those with their own Microtransaction system or communities, but your game can be distributed to the other 99% of the internet.

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Jo
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago)

United States US

I wonder if agame/addictinggames/mindjolt are against micro transactions...

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Mr. Shen
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago)

United States US

Let's just say we are doing everything in our power to work with publishers and figure out an agreement of sorts. It's in all of our best interests!

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flashgamemaker
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Whats wrong with my idea of a system similar to CPMStar but in reverse? I'e the developer has their 60%, and they can then negotiate what percentage they want to give the publisher? That way it's all down to the negotiations between the dev and the publisher, and allows a lot of flexibility.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

Jo
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago)

United States US

I think that would allow for some publishers taking advantage of developers.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

Israel (CerebralGames)
Jul 28, 2009 (4 years 264 days ago) edited 4 years 264 days ago

Chile CL

what worries the big game portals like agame/addictinggames/mindjolt is that when an user logs-in or buys coins is redirected to another site with great games to spend the buyed coins, and that user probably will not come back to the portal.

But in the other side they have games sponsored with logos from other portals, any user can click on them and find another similar games and never come back.

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NitromeMat
Jul 29, 2009 (4 years 263 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Flashgamemaker - Jo is right! Publishers would soon take advantage of that. Developers would end up offering stupidly high percentages to get their games noticed and everyone else would then be forced to follow. Some sites would likely start demanding a certain percentage to host your game and you would end up with dev only getting a token amount.

You only have to look at the iphone market to see what happens when developers are given the ability to undercut each other! Most games there are now the lowest possible price to try and get exposure and even the big devs have had to follow....it may be great for the consumer but it's bad for devs and leads to development of larger games being too risky lowering overall quality.

By fixing the percentages Mochi is giving devs the best chance to make money from their transactions. Some sites will be against them at first but as more devs make great games using them they will realise they are loosing out not hosting them and I'm sure Mochi will work at the main things they have objection to as they come about.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

axlarry
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

I won't be adding any of mochicoin games on my portals :P

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archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

I probably won't be adding any more Mochi-Coined enabled games to any of my portals unless Mochi fixed a solid rate for publishers as well.

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wm
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United States US

OH NO

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

velgajski1
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

I am speaking as a developer and publisher. I will add mochicoins games to my site, especially quality ones. If someone wants to skip a great game - its their choice, grater opportunity for my site to grow.

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axlarry
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

Don't you think it's odd that you want your games to be added to all portals yet you treat them like crap? Stop saying publishers get free games...because apparently they're not. You already have in-game ads, logo/more games button (or some cash if it's sponsored) and now you want to take away their users to mochigames and get even more money from mochicoins? Sounds really unfair, isn't it?

It is not easy to make games, we know.. yet you should also know it's not easy to build a great portal. You should respect that too. Who will play your games if there's no portal adding your games?

If mochi keep treating publishers like this, I really am considering to remove all of their games. I know other places where I can get free games... I mean 100% free.

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domreinalabaster
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United States US

Mochi has already stated several times that it's working on a publisher's reward program.

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archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

Based on their past share they gave publisher, I doubt its going to interest too many people.

Axlarry, forget about trying to convince everyone here. Thats not going to work.

Just don't put any of the games on your portal and tell all webmaster friends you have why they shouldn't.

I doubt any of the large portals right now that don't allow mochi-ads will suddenly allow Mochi-Coins.

There a way you can take advantage of this development also. These mochi-coins games can give you good ideas on games your create yourself. Just create good games that are completely free, that will give you an edge over games that charge people. Many of these features they charge for aren't that hard to program into games. Just offer these features for free when you make games. It'll help your own distribution.

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bigjko
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

Denmark DK

Originally posted by archbob

There a way you can take advantage of this development also. These mochi-coins games can give you good ideas on games your create yourself. Just create good games that are completely free, that will give you an edge over games that charge people. Many of these features they charge for aren't that hard to program into games. Just offer these features for free when you make games. It'll help your own distribution.

Lovely! Let's keep flash games in the ghetto. We don't need revenue to make better games. Let's regurgitate the same crap-fest again, and again, because we don't want to improve or evolve this market.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

Originally posted by bigjko

Originally posted by archbob

There a way you can take advantage of this development also. These mochi-coins games can give you good ideas on games your create yourself. Just create good games that are completely free, that will give you an edge over games that charge people. Many of these features they charge for aren't that hard to program into games. Just offer these features for free when you make games. It'll help your own distribution.

Lovely! Let's keep flash games in the ghetto. We don't need revenue to make better games. Let's regurgitate the same crap-fest again, and again, because we don't want to improve or evolve this market.

I don't about you, but I make money off my games that use these "ghetto" tactics. Its perfectly fine to offer games that are completely free. There's no reason I shouldn't use this development of "premium" content to my advantage by providing similar quality content, except making the "premium" parts free in my games. I mean its really not that hard to program in an extra few guns for a shooting game.

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nutter666
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

yes.. well all know how you make your money...

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archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

Originally posted by nutter666

yes.. well all know how you make your money...

Yes, by self-sponsering my own games and taking time to distribute them online so traffic comes back to me. Yes, that is so bad.

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bigjko
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

Denmark DK

Originally posted by archbob

Originally posted by bigjko

Originally posted by archbob

There a way you can take advantage of this development also. These mochi-coins games can give you good ideas on games your create yourself. Just create good games that are completely free, that will give you an edge over games that charge people. Many of these features they charge for aren't that hard to program into games. Just offer these features for free when you make games. It'll help your own distribution.

Lovely! Let's keep flash games in the ghetto. We don't need revenue to make better games. Let's regurgitate the same crap-fest again, and again, because we don't want to improve or evolve this market.

I don't about you, but I make money off my games that use these "ghetto" tactics. Its perfectly fine to offer games that are completely free. There's no reason I shouldn't use this development of "premium" content to my advantage by providing similar quality content, except making the "premium" parts free in my games. I mean its really not that hard to program in an extra few guns for a shooting game.

I don't know about you, but if Flash games don't evolve beyond generic shooting games with a few extra guns, and without increased revenue they never will, I'll probably move on to a more serious platform.

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flashgamemaker
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by archbob

Based on their past share they gave publisher, I doubt its going to interest too many people.

Axlarry, forget about trying to convince everyone here. Thats not going to work.

Just don't put any of the games on your portal and tell all webmaster friends you have why they shouldn't.

I doubt any of the large portals right now that don't allow mochi-ads will suddenly allow Mochi-Coins.

There a way you can take advantage of this development also. These mochi-coins games can give you good ideas on games your create yourself. Just create good games that are completely free, that will give you an edge over games that charge people. Many of these features they charge for aren't that hard to program into games. Just offer these features for free when you make games. It'll help your own distribution.

Dude, seriously. Maybe you think high quality games can be knocked together in 2 days, but trust me when I say they cannot. I don't think anyone is suggesting that mochi coins get put into "average" quality games. The kinds of games that will warrant mochi coins will be the kinds of games that take time to build, and probably need the services of more then 1 person working on them, think downloadable Flash game quality, think indie game quality, think XBL even. I think it's completely fair that those types of games use MT's.

It seems people have very fixed views on this on one side or the other :), where as I don't see it like that. There has always been a premuim PC games market, it's been around for a long time and makes some companies a lot of money. Take bejeweled, I believe that was available as a downloaded game from popcap for $9.99 when it first launched? Or what about their latest (and great) Plants Vs Zombies game, would you suggest that this game should be free? All mochi coins does is allow the developers who are able to create high quality products get some extra income from them, that's all! and that will fit well with some portals and not with others.

The "free" Flash games will never go away, it will always be there, and there will always be portals using and doing very well with free Flash games, and theres nothing wrong with that either :) I've made the point that I would be happy to give away a small percentage to encourage portal owners to use mochi coin games, I don't have an issue with that. I don't buy the argument that portal owners will take advantage of the developers because the whole point of what I said is that they can negotiate, and come to an agreement that they are both happy with, if not then I guess the game doesn't go on that portal :) I guess if the publishers who are signed up to the publisher program got an automatic small amount from using any games that use mochi coins that would help the issue here.

I can see all sides of this argument, and I'm sure eventually a situation can arise which is fair and everyone is happy with :)

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

awj
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

Originally posted by bigjko

Originally posted by archbob

There a way you can take advantage of this development also. These mochi-coins games can give you good ideas on games your create yourself. Just create good games that are completely free, that will give you an edge over games that charge people. Many of these features they charge for aren't that hard to program into games. Just offer these features for free when you make games. It'll help your own distribution.

Lovely! Let's keep flash games in the ghetto. We don't need revenue to make better games. Let's regurgitate the same crap-fest again, and again, because we don't want to improve or evolve this market.

I don't about you, but I make money off my games that use these "ghetto" tactics. Its perfectly fine to offer games that are completely free. There's no reason I shouldn't use this development of "premium" content to my advantage by providing similar quality content, except making the "premium" parts free in my games. I mean its really not that hard to program in an extra few guns for a shooting game.

Enjoy trying to produce content where every game you make needs to be played over a million and a half times to make you $20 per hour.

Being generous, let's say it takes you 40 hours to reproduce an existing MT game. If you wanted to earn $20 per hour you'd need:

40 * 20 * (1000 / 0.5) = 1600000

Plays to get that much with an eCPM of $0.5, which if anything seems pretty generous. And that's just to put yourself in a position where a janitor can out-earn you.

Contrast that with some fantasy game that just uses coins, and to keep things simple only charges 400 coins per item. Your return on each purchase is 60%, so $0.30

(40 * 20) / 0.3 = 2666

So, you'd have to sell somewhere upwards of 2.5k items to make $20/hour. The difference is that no one is going to just use coins, they're going to be pulling in money off adds too. Let's say you average one sale per twenty plays. Still looking for $20 per hour, we're looking at:

 0.5*(x/1000) + (x/20)*0.3 = 800
 0.0005*x + x*0.05*0.3     = 800
 0.0005*x + 0.015*x        = 800
 0.0155*x                  = 800
 x                         = 51612

Plays to make $20 per hour. That's 3.2% of what it would take to make the same amount from ads alone, and that's with assumptions about eCPM that really shift things in the ad-only game's favor. Also, notice which pieces contribute to the amount per thousand plays multiplier: 0.0155. The part in bold comes from MT content, the rest is from ad revenue.

So, good luck making MT-level content and giving it away for free. Hopefully at some point you'll realize how futile this is when the average MT sale is worth more than 1000 plays, that on average an MT sale is probably going to happen more than once per 1000 plays, that even if it only happened once per 2000 plays it still results in a significantly higher eCPM.

There's money to be made in free flash games, but realistically you just can't afford to risk sinking that kind of time into something for the returns.

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archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

Yes, because games like Sonny(which made tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands) without any Micro-X have not evolved beyond that.

When I play flash, I'm usually looking for games that I can quickly play in a few minutes. Many players are kids at school wasting a few minutes at the library computer or people at work playing during their breaks. There a large portion of players that are looking for simple games over the complex ones when it comes to flash games.

Mindjolt and their facebook app are some of the most popular play-areas around, but the games that do the best there are simply match-3 and shooter types, not the really complex ones.

If you want really complex stuff with great 3D graphics, you always have your X-Box or PS3.

I really liked the mochi-ads -- well before they started talking and crashing my browser from time to time. But the coins -- not so much.

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awj
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

Yes, because games like Sonny(which made tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands) without any Micro-X have not evolved beyond that.

So that's your plan? Make something huge and complex and hope to strike it rich? Sonny is a great game, but it's pretty obvious that any thoughts of income took a backseat to love of the product. I can admire that mindset, and am kicking around a few projects where that is true, but we're not here right now to talk about doing it for the love. If you're in it for the money you don't bet on luck.

When I play flash, I'm usually looking for games that I can quickly play in a few minutes. Many players are kids at school wasting a few minutes at the library computer or people at work playing during their breaks. There a large portion of players that are looking for simple games over the complex ones when it comes to flash games.

At this point you should realize that "quick games in a few minutes" and "microtransaction games" are two partially distinct markets that happen to share the same tools. Sure, some people will make ones that cross the boundaries both ways, but in general putting in MT content just adds so much to the game it quickly steps outside of the "few minute game" concept.

If you want really complex stuff with great 3D graphics, you always have your X-Box or PS3.

I don't have money for dev kits on either, and don't have to resources to make something halfway decent compared to the market. With Flash it's still possible for one or two people to put together something great.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

With Micro-X and paid content, your competing with the likes X-box or PS-3.

Why pay for your content when those players can purchase what you admit is far superior content compared to anything that can be made in flash?

I can certainly see a future in multiplayer flash MMO's, but not in single player games.

MT itself doesn't add anything to the game, except people get annoyed that they have to pay for stuff.

You don't have to make something like Sonny to make alot.

Bloons is the most profitable game out there and its not that complex. Other games like those shitty Paris Hilton games and mega-popular and also make 5 digits.

My plan isn't to make something like Sonny. Its quite a bit simplier. Make Niche games like Tower Defense, shooting games, car games and other popular niche games that get many times more plays than a regular game of the same quality. Its the most time efficient thing available, especially since I can just channel all the traffic-sharing ads to one of my portals.

My current goal is to pass 100,000 Mochi-ad views a day by the end of the year, possible 150,000.

Devs also have the I-Phone option, which I would take up, except I don't feel like buying a mac right now.

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axlarry
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

Popcap have their own portal and they offer affiliate program. The problem is you're using other people traffic (from portals) to generate your income. And you're not giving anything to those portals.

That's why I won't add these games on my portals. I better find 100% free games to add or join affiliate programs if I want to add premium games, instead promoting mochicoin games. This is just a lousy way to promote mochigames.com for free.

I'm not againts premium games, but you better have your own portal to promote them.

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archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

You should try regnow and youdagames axlarry, that 30% commission is pretty good.

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bigjko
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

Denmark DK

Whatever the current trend is, there'll always be people who will want to buy quality games. Just because Flash games are now geared towards the bored, college student wasting time on the internet doesn't mean it can't be a viable platform for quality games.

Things change. Google releases an all-web based OS, and regardless of how successful it is it's still based on the notion that people are using the internet more and more for more complex things. Before, there were only simple web pages. Then came Gmail. Now we have Excel, Word and PowerPoint capabilities right there in our browser.

The same goes for web-based games. Sure, Bloons is popular now. But then, so was Raptor Safari. And someday, if we can prove that Flash games are worth the money, maybe we'll have the equivalent of Super Mario World or Monkey Island on the web. And those games deserve the money to be played.

It's ridiculous to think we'll just shoehorn micro transactions into any game and think players will pay for an extra letter in "Alphatbet Attack". You have to think beyond that. If people are spending money on quality games on the XBox, they'll most definately spend a fraction of that on quality Flash games. The biggest hurdle will be to prove that Flash games can be quality games. That they can be big games, that you maybe spend one hour on every one in a while. The people that are playing on consoles, and PC gamers, they're not exclusive. They're not living under a rock. They use the internet, and they have money, and they want big, complex games. Or even just game with good gameplay and decent production values.

But that doesn't mean free games will disappear. Freeware in the PC market still exists. Micro transactions will just pave the way for a new divide. Are you making a little, simple game with one nifty game mechanic? Put MochiAds in it and get something for your time. Are you devoting a bunch of resources in making a fully fledged game with complex mechanics that require tons of playtesting, design, thought? Then hell yes, make the player pay for it. You deserve it and in the process you're making Flash games valuable.

And for the record, I'm all for portal owners getting their fair share of all of this. Most of the time you are the only reason our games get player. But stating that you won't support micro transaction games because you think they're not worth it? That you can easily copy their game and give it to players for free? That's just stifling the creativity, improvement and evolution of the market.

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diffusiongames
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United States US

Yes, because games like Sonny(which made tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands) without any Micro-X have not evolved beyond that.

The budget for Sonny 2 was $25,000.

Someone has to front the money for those kinda games -- will it be you? Why not let the players help? If they can pay $60 for a PS3 game which gives them 60 hours of fun, why not pay $2 for a game that gives you 2 hours of fun?

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

I'll support the Micro-X stuff if Mochi integrate it so people don't have to leave publisher's site when registering, logging in, or buying and Mochi decides to give about the same same % commissions as the developers who make "demo" versions of their games and flash and then sell premium games through in-game links.

Unless I'm the developer, how much developers make is not my concern, how much I make and how much I'm losing is what I'm concerned with.

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Jameson
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago)

United States US

archbob, I appreciate your enthusiasm for this topic. =)

With regards to people leaving your site to register and login there isn't much of a choice since we are bound by security constraints. It is highly unsafe to ask users to enter passwords or payment information in a Flash movie because of the security risks. With third party content anyone can create a keystroke logger in the Flash movie and start tracing passwords and such. Security is our top priority and we would never ask a consumer to enter his/her password within a game. I know there are other systems that do this but it's a very high security risk and one that we will not take part in.

For that reason we must open a new window where we can conduct a secure transaction for people to login, register or enter their payment information. PayPal operates in very much the same way. We have no intention of "stealing" your users and in due time you'll see that more clearly with the new features we roll out. The only reason why a new window is needed for MochiGames is so that we can ensure the safety of our consumers.

And as for the affiliate share, it's something that we're actively working on. Devising a successful affiliate program requires a lot of data to properly calculate the expected value of a customer. We're still collecting that data right now since we've only been officially launched for 1 week. The affiliate programs that you may encounter in the downloadable space have years of data to optimize against so that's why you see more sophisticated offerings. We are in a very young industry and it's going to take time for us to gather an adequate amount of data to fully understand the value of our customers. You can rest assured that an affiliate program is coming. It's just a matter of time.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

bob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

I'll support the Micro-X stuff if Mochi integrate it so people don't have to leave publisher's site when registering, logging in, or buying and Mochi decides to give about the same same % commissions as the developers who make "demo" versions of their games and flash and then sell premium games through in-game links.

It is actually impossible to do what you want securely, so don't hold your breath. Buying things can be done completely on your site right now, but only if you're already registered and logged in and have sufficient funds in your account. That's the best that can be done with current generation browsers and Flash.

How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 262 days ago) edited 4 years 262 days ago

When I see the % of affiliate commissions Rival that of places like Youda games(who is offering 30% on all sales) from Mochi-coins, I may change my mind.

Youda does mostly the same thing you guys do using regnow. They let us host a 'restricted' version on our site and has an in-game link to a regnow store for premium features. I sell for a couple of other companies using the same method(restricted versions hosted on my site, with an option to buy premium) and they all give 20%-30%.

If you guys give the same 10% like you do in your Ads program to publishers, your just making a statement that your not really interested in working with publishers at all.

Mochi been pretty good to me as a developer, but as a publisher, mochi just doesn't offer anything.

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rudy_sudarto
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Indonesia ID

Funny thread :). But personally i as developer not quite interesting with this kind monetization for flashgame ( read: MT ) unless the game is having "social" content. For $1-5 there are already better game than flashgame worth to spend money :).

But it seems lots of publisher doesnt like mochigames, since mochigames not giving publisher good portion and good relationship. The system itself will hurt publisher portal cause we have to register , login and buy at mochigames sites so When player would find mochigames.com , some will stick there . And pblisher will loose traffic and get nothing :) Doubled K.O . LOL.

I hope mochigames can do this things:

  • Add percentages commision to publisher if there is player buy coins through their site
  • More friendly login,register, buy system, try not to drive player away from publisher site
  • Be more and more selective filtering ordinary and good games for implementing mochi coins. Only accept great games in mochicoins. Honestly, from all mochigames published right now, the only game is worth to use mochicoins is Twin Shot 2, nitrome games. Other is sucks , sorry . Dont tell me i dont know how hard to make flashgame , since my games is do quite good in many big portal.

Hope this can make mochigames better and not hurt both player and publisher side.

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rudy_sudarto
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Indonesia ID

Originally posted by bob

Originally posted by archbob

I'll support the Micro-X stuff if Mochi integrate it so people don't have to leave publisher's site when registering, logging in, or buying and Mochi decides to give about the same same % commissions as the developers who make "demo" versions of their games and flash and then sell premium games through in-game links.

It is actually impossible to do what you want securely, so don't hold your breath. Buying things can be done completely on your site right now, but only if you're already registered and logged in and have sufficient funds in your account. That's the best that can be done with current generation browsers and Flash.

this is why lot of publisher dont like and feel mochigames.com want to grab free traffics from other publisher. If you can fix this, i think mochigames can step forward in publisher mindset :).

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bob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US
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Khanduras
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by rudy_sudarto

  • Be more and more selective filtering ordinary and good games for implementing mochi coins. Only accept great games in mochicoins. Honestly, from all mochigames published right now, the only game is worth to use mochicoins is Twin Shot 2, nitrome games. Other is sucks , sorry . Dont tell me i dont know how hard to make flashgame , since my games is do quite good in many big portal.

"My games are good, so my opinion matters when I say those others suck." Seriously? Wow...

I do believe this is the single-most biased, uneducated statement I have ever read since I've been here. Congratulations, sir.

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archbob
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Originally posted by Khanduras

Originally posted by rudy_sudarto

  • Be more and more selective filtering ordinary and good games for implementing mochi coins. Only accept great games in mochicoins. Honestly, from all mochigames published right now, the only game is worth to use mochicoins is Twin Shot 2, nitrome games. Other is sucks , sorry . Dont tell me i dont know how hard to make flashgame , since my games is do quite good in many big portal.

"My games are good, so my opinion matters when I say those others suck." Seriously? Wow...

I do believe this is the single-most biased, uneducated statement I have ever read since I've been here. Congratulations, sir.

I second Rudy on his opinion that his games are good. Obviously players and Newgrounds and Kongregate thought so also.

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rudy_sudarto
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Indonesia ID

i dont tell my games good other sucks . U miss communication sir. In Mochigames / MT case, the only worth to add MT system is only twin shot 2, sorry for calling other sucks, the game is great escpecially SAS2, but it isnt worth enough to add paid content to the game.

i hope u can understand what i mean. cause my english is sucks.

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Khanduras
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago) edited 4 years 261 days ago

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

I second Rudy on his opinion that his games are good. Obviously players and Newgrounds and Kongregate thought so also.

I'm not denying the fact that his games are good. I personally find them to be quite good myself. I really just thought him saying the other MochiCoin-enabled premium games sucked was a bit uncalled for. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but to use that as an argument for why the system needs changed shouldn't sit right with anyone.

Originally posted by rudy_sudarto

i dont tell my games good other sucks . U miss communication sir. In Mochigames / MT case, the only worth to add MT system is only twin shot 2, sorry for calling other sucks, the game is great escpecially SAS2, but it isnt worth enough to add paid content to the game.

i hope u can understand what i mean. cause my english is sucks.

I do understand what you mean. Surely not all of those games used MochiCoins in the best possible manner, but you have to remember - it's a fairly new system. It'll take a while before everyone gets a feel for it.

If you remember correctly, when MochiAds was starting anew, people were trying to display ads every 10 seconds just because they wanted more money faster. It was annoying, but due to seeing what worked OVER TIME, it changed. People found better ways to maximize their revenue without being spammy in their implementations.

The same thing will surely be true for the new Coins system. Through trial and error, developers will see what works better for them, and the content will become more well-rounded when it comes to the microtransaction system.

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rudy_sudarto
Jul 30, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Indonesia ID

Opinion is just opinion. im not against other developer escpecially ninjakiwi, i appreciate them. lot of their games is inspiring me.

But i just said in player side ( not developer ) , other game except nitromegames, actually isnt worthed enough to spend my money , i dont mean to let anyone accept my opinion.this is just come from common player :).

So as player i want better games , lot of it to spend my money at.

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egdcltd
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

Originally posted by Jameson

For that reason we must open a new window where we can conduct a secure transaction for people to login, register or enter their payment information. PayPal operates in very much the same way. We have no intention of "stealing" your users and in due time you'll see that more clearly with the new features we roll out. The only reason why a new window is needed for MochiGames is so that we can ensure the safety of our consumers.

Is there any way this new window could be integrated better with the publishers site? Iframes, Ajax whatever? Or like PayPal does, where the payment interface can be modified, and then after payment, the user is redirected back to the original site?

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Tidous
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Germany DE

@mochi

Will there be a way to selfskin the register- / loginpage and get rid of the Mochi-Branding and links?

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Crazy Ninja
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Originally posted by egdcltd

Originally posted by Jameson

For that reason we must open a new window where we can conduct a secure transaction for people to login, register or enter their payment information. PayPal operates in very much the same way. We have no intention of "stealing" your users and in due time you'll see that more clearly with the new features we roll out. The only reason why a new window is needed for MochiGames is so that we can ensure the safety of our consumers.

Is there any way this new window could be integrated better with the publishers site? Iframes, Ajax whatever? Or like PayPal does, where the payment interface can be modified, and then after payment, the user is redirected back to the original site?

Exactly!!!!!!

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bob
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

There is no reason to redirect back to the original site because the original site is still open. After payment there is a page with a big button that says "Close Window" and some messaging to tell you that you can go back to your game now.

It is not possible to securely implement a solution with iframes/ajax/etc. It must be a new window or it must take over the page, but we do a new window so that they don't lose progress in their game and have to start over.

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Tidous
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Germany DE

@bob So will there be a way to selfskin the register- /loginpage and get rid of the mochi-Branding and links?

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raitendo
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Originally posted by Khanduras

"My games are good, so my opinion matters when I say those others suck." Seriously? Wow...

I do believe this is the single-most biased, uneducated statement I have ever read since I've been here. Congratulations, sir.

christ, he expressed a perfectly legitimate opinion, take it easy.

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axlarry
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago) edited 4 years 261 days ago

Originally posted by bob

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impossible

Well in that case, it's also http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impossible for portal owners to add the games on their portals.

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rudy_sudarto
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Indonesia ID

axlary just let mochi media take their breath and find the best solution for all element ( developer, mochi, publisher ) :D.

since this is just new thing. But if its stay like this. So market will choose by itself :). will have two kind developer , who monetize their game with MT and monetize their game with usual type ( sponsorhsip, perfomance deal , ingame ads which still could reach lot of revenue if the distribution doing great ) .

also will have two kind of publisher :) , which support games have mochicoins and them who arent

Player would choose too, play the free one or the freemium one :)

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bob
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by axlarry

Originally posted by bob

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impossible

Well in that case, it's also http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impossible for portal owners to add the games on their portals.

You might want to read the definition a little more closely :) It's easy to prove that it's not impossible because many publishers are picking up premium games.

It is impossible for us to offer a secure method to register, login and fund your account in-game, so we will not do that. We will not put consumers at risk even if it would make publishers happy.

We've already stated that we're working on a publisher program and the details of that will be announced when it's ready.

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axlarry
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

bob at least not on any of mine. Glad to hear you're getting good response from many other publishers though. Noting how you response to their feedback. I think I'm done here, it seems you guys have your own world. Good day to you all.

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Tidous
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Germany DE

To answer my question seems to be very hard...

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bob
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by Tidous

To answer my question seems to be very hard...

The details of the publisher program are not announced. We'll be announcing the details of what's available to publishers when the program is ready.

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Ryan
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by flashgamemaker

Mochi coins looks like a great way for devs to earn extra income but only if it's possible to get those games on high traffic sites and/or spread far and wide. So far at least it's looking like this will not be possible, so I wondering if anyone has suggestions of what portals DO accept mochi coins? and idea's for how to distribute mochi coin enabled games?

This thread got quite de-railed off of how to distribute MochiCoin games, and most importantly, about the sites that take them. I can chime in here with some REAL data, rather than conjecture.

When I released my MochiCoins game, Crazy Go Nuts 2, I only released on Newgrounds and Mochi Distribution. In the last week or so it's reached about 500 sites, and a bit over a half million impressions.

During a similar time period, my first game (it's predecessor) reached around 300 sites and 400K impressions without MochiCoins. I used the same release - newgrounds and mochi distribution. (I think I started site submitting a within that first week though, whereas with Crazy Go Nuts 2, I did not.)

I was curious as to the results before I released too, but I can say I've been pleasantly surprised.

http://funderoo.com/game/crazy-go-nuts-2

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Tidous
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Germany DE

@bob

I asked it as a developer. Just from the side of gaming experience etc. So if developers will also have the chance to skin the register / login page, so it matches to the game, this would be a great thing.

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Ryan
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Yes, we'll be releasing that soon. We intended to do this from the beginning but there were some last minute issues. The purchase flow is branded with developer backgrounds, but we skipped the login page.

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archbob
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

Originally posted by Ryan

Originally posted by flashgamemaker

Mochi coins looks like a great way for devs to earn extra income but only if it's possible to get those games on high traffic sites and/or spread far and wide. So far at least it's looking like this will not be possible, so I wondering if anyone has suggestions of what portals DO accept mochi coins? and idea's for how to distribute mochi coin enabled games?

This thread got quite de-railed off of how to distribute MochiCoin games, and most importantly, about the sites that take them. I can chime in here with some REAL data, rather than conjecture.

When I released my MochiCoins game, Crazy Go Nuts 2, I only released on Newgrounds and Mochi Distribution. In the last week or so it's reached about 500 sites, and a bit over a half million impressions.

During a similar time period, my first game (it's predecessor) reached around 300 sites and 400K impressions without MochiCoins. I used the same release - newgrounds and mochi distribution. (I think I started site submitting a within that first week though, whereas with Crazy Go Nuts 2, I did not.)

I was curious as to the results before I released too, but I can say I've been pleasantly surprised.

http://funderoo.com/game/crazy-go-nuts-2

I actually put that game on my site and SaS zombie assault 2 also, mainly because I didn't know about Mochi-coins and what it was when those games first out. Didn't read about it until later. I don't usually remove games from my sites after I put them up.

Thats was a nice game, by the ways.

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Ryan
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

United States US

Thanks man!

Yeah that's entirely possible that some of the sites just put the games up without noticing vs. not caring about coins. I just found it interesting. Hopefully we'll be able to improve the overall product experience, and with a form of affiliate program in place, we can find ways to work with everyone well.

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archbob
Jul 31, 2009 (4 years 261 days ago)

I've decided to accept gamersafe as an option right now. May accept coins later based on Mochi's offering.

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AllTheGames.in
Aug 02, 2009 (4 years 259 days ago)

India IN

Originally posted by axlarry

Don't you think it's odd that you want your games to be added to all portals yet you treat them like crap? Stop saying publishers get free games...because apparently they're not. You already have in-game ads, logo/more games button (or some cash if it's sponsored) and now you want to take away their users to mochigames and get even more money from mochicoins? Sounds really unfair, isn't it?

It is not easy to make games, we know.. yet you should also know it's not easy to build a great portal. You should respect that too. Who will play your games if there's no portal adding your games?

If mochi keep treating publishers like this, I really am considering to remove all of their games. I know other places where I can get free games... I mean 100% free.

I totally agree. I am not going to add any mochi coins games. And yes there are lots of websites providing free games without placing there ads in the game. I have bookmarked more than 10 websites on the net providing such games.

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delpiero
Aug 02, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

And yes there are lots of websites providing free games without placing there ads in the game.

With most of those the game itself is an ad. Miniclip, Armor games, Youda games, Kongregate, they spread demos and crippled games around for free, and there are links all over the place offering premium versions that can only be played on their sites. Just clicking on high scores often takes visitors away from your site. How is this better than mochi ads?

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archbob
Aug 02, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

Originally posted by delpiero

And yes there are lots of websites providing free games without placing there ads in the game.

With most of those the game itself is an ad. Miniclip, Armor games, Youda games, Kongregate, they spread demos and crippled games around for free, and there are links all over the place offering premium versions that can only be played on their sites. Just clicking on high scores often takes visitors away from your site. How is this better than mochi ads?

They aren't crippled games for the most part. That and their ads don't talk. There a large number of people that just don't like paying for content. As Youda, they give 30% commission so you don't have a point with them.

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Khanduras
Aug 02, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

They aren't crippled games for the most part. That and their ads don't talk. There a large number of people that just don't like paying for content.

Then they can play the game without paying for the additional content. Don't really see the problem with that...

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archbob
Aug 02, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

Originally posted by Khanduras

Originally posted by archbob

They aren't crippled games for the most part. That and their ads don't talk. There a large number of people that just don't like paying for content.

Then they can play the game without paying for the additional content. Don't really see the problem with that...

Read the reviews on newgrounds, there's alot of people who are turned off by the just the fact that the entire game isn't free. Plus, I just don't see having a mochi-coins game on my site as benefitting to me.

Have you compared the star ads to the usual talking Lysol ad from Mochi? Can you not see how much less intrusive and better then star ad is when compared to mochi? Thats actually one of the reasons I actually favor armor content, because their ads don't talk.

By the ways, its not like coin games aren't just an ad already for the developer/sponsor. Most of the already have ads and in-game links already. You guys are just putting something else on top of that. The ads and the sponsor links are fine with me. The coins is just something I don't want so I'm simply not putting them on my site.

Also, as a player, I simply don't want to see paying for flash games becoming the norm.

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Khanduras
Aug 02, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

United States US

You opting not to place them on your site is really your own choice, and I'm not here to try to convince you otherwise. What you don't seem to understand however, is that as a developer those external links and secondary monetization methods, as intrusive as you may find them personally, are the only way that developers have to create their own revenue streams through self-promotion as well as advertising.

It's no different than what you do as a portal owner. The advertisements on your page are about as obnoxious, simply because they're just about everywhere - including near our games. Does that give us the right to bitch and moan about you attempting to take people away from our games? 'cause, you know, the potential is there.

Same concept, really. Just two completely different standing points.

Edit: I'm not saying "you" as in Archbob, I'm saying "you" as in the collective "portal owners."

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rudy_sudarto
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

Indonesia ID

I want to ask as a publisher to archbob

AS u may know, some armor and Kong games having exclusive content playable only to their sites. How this comparing with mochigames since it is same wayto drive traffic from ur sites.

Thanks.

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archbob
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

Originally posted by rudy_sudarto

I want to ask as a publisher to archbob

AS u may know, some armor and Kong games having exclusive content playable only to their sites. How this comparing with mochigames since it is same wayto drive traffic from ur sites.

Thanks.

Yeah, those are annoying and in some instances I won't add them. But the content is still free on their site, unlike coins. More than anything else, any kind of paid content on a free flash site will leave man users with a bad taste in their mouth. If you don't believe it, look at the reviews for twin shot 2 on newgrounds.

I'm fine with the self-promotion and ads, Khanduras . Coins is taking it too far. If you want to use my traffic for making actual sales, you have to pay me commissions. If I refer people or drive sales in just about any industry, I get paid a fairly high commissions. I've run a variety of sites before games and in just about every one, I gotten a fairly high commission for referring people and selling stuff.

Flash games isn't the only game industry that does this. There alot of places that will give you good content articles about a general topic to get a few links to their product at the end. And yes, you still get a decent % commission on the sale.

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archbob
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

It's no different than what you do as a portal owner. The advertisements on your page are about as obnoxious, simply because they're just about everywhere - including near our games. Does that give us the right to bitch and moan about you attempting to take people away from our games? 'cause, you know, the potential is there.

Its a bit different. If you have a primary sponsor, it means someone has already paid you for that game to be on my site. I'm sure you understand when a sponsor pays you for a primary or exclusive distribution sponsorship, he's paying for the right for others to host his version of the game on their sites so he can get traffic. Since someone has already paid you for the game being on our site, there's is really nothing for you to moan about. If you have in-game ads, thats the trade off we put up with for having the game on our site. Its really a matter of how much we intrusion we are willing to accept and at this point, without commissions, Coins is not acceptable to many portals. Some may add it, but not feature it. As you can see for the ratings and reviews on newgrounds, players generally have a negative attitude towards it to.

Besides all that, in any system where you drive actual sales, the referrer does get commission. I don't see flash games as any kind of exception. It does not matter how you drive it or if the person would have bought somewhere else if you hadn't been there. You refer the sale, you get paid. This is true in just about any industry where a 3rd party is used to drive sales and the referrer doesn't have to be exclusively referring your product.

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rudy_sudarto
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

Indonesia ID

Im agree giving comision if having sale at publisher sites. It is natural like that .

For exclusive content, ya its prety annoying i know, but sponsorship value is driving traffic right ? :D In mochigames , user spend money its okay i think. But im only spend money if the game worth to spend . And if in future, there would be more games implementing mochigames, im just hope they can lock content wisely and the pay version is really worth my money.

It seems there will be sharewares flashgame :) ( i called it that way since it has to transform like shareware ) and freeware flashgames .

Pick it or leave it. promote the shareware or just the free one. case close.

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archbob
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

There's another side to it.

Just by adding non-free content to your site, your going to spurn off some visitors and make it less likely for them to come back.

Its different from downloadable shareware.

In that case, most people expect that all of the game won't be free. So having a option to buy extra crap in those games doesn't cause any problems.

In this case, most people expect everything to be free so when its not, it causes problems.

And as a player and not a publisher, I'm turned off myself by premium flash games. The ads are fine as are the in-game links but the premium stuff is just a big turn-off.

Enjoy trying to produce content where every game you make needs to be played over a million and a half times to make you $20 per hour. Being generous, let's say it takes you 40 hours to reproduce an existing MT game. If you wanted to earn $20 per hour you'd need: 40 * 20 * (1000 / 0.5) = 1600000 Plays to get that much with an eCPM of $0.5, which if anything seems pretty generous. And that's just to put yourself in a position where a janitor can out-earn you. Contrast that with some fantasy game that just uses coins, and to keep things simple only charges 400 coins per item. Your return on each purchase is 60%, so $0.30

Your forgetting I have a site too that I can promote in the games, I can easily make it worth my time. If the game is really of that high quality, it'll reach a 1.6 million visitors in less than 2 weeks.

You also forgetting for regular developers that if they really make a game thats good enough to warrant MT, they can get a sponsor to pay them much more than $800, which would make you your $20/hour already.

I also would like to know where Janitors get paid $20/hour.

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Incrue
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

Dude, you dont want to add games with coins then dont do it.Others will and the market will decide who deserves what.

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hatu
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago) edited 4 years 258 days ago

Finland FI

Clearly not everyone agrees on the future of Flash games. I'm hoping micropayments gets big enough to get rid of the obnoxious ads altogether.

In the future there's gonna be portals with minimal ads and premium content (closer to iTunes store or XBLA) and ad-hell portals (closer to most portals now). I'm sure both will get their audience.

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John Blackburne
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

In this case, most people expect everything to be free so when its not, it causes problems.

I would not say most, but as much as it's a problem it's one of user education. There is no god-given right to get something. There's no such thing as a free lunch. &c. We cannot design systems around the few percent who think they should get something for nothing. As well as doing nothing for our bottom lines there's no point listening to opinions from them, as to them everything has the same value - you will hear nonsense like "why should I pay [$0.50] for this flash game when it's not as good as [$60] GTA?".

And you might be surprised at how sophisticated internet users are. They are already familiar with similar models in other media. E.g. iTunes's free Single of the Week. News sites that have some free content but require subscriptions to access most of it. Services like Spotify which are only free if you put up with adverts. Even among software there are many models - feature-limited shareware, time-limited demos, freeware that solicits donations, free for personal use only, as well as micro-transactions which are already used in many web games.

No one's going to be shocked or offended by flash games with micro-transactions. They might choose not to pay, so only play the free part of the game. Or they might play other games instead. But that's fine: it's for us to give them good reasons to play our games and good reasons to pay to unlock premium features.

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Erasmus Darwin
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

Originally posted by archbob

More than anything else, any kind of paid content on a free flash site will leave man users with a bad taste in their mouth. If you don't believe it, look at the reviews for twin shot 2 on newgrounds.

Yes, there are reviews for Twin Shot 2 complaining about the pay aspect. However, those reviews also tend to have "People think this is a useless review." underneath them.

People will complain about anything. The important thing to consider is the prevailing opinion, which is at least somewhat supportive. 50 free levels is a lot, and it seems like a lot of people recognize that they're still getting a full game's worth of content before they have to pay. As MochiCoins become more ubiquitous, the kneejerk complaints will drop off even more.

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hatu
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

Finland FI

Maybe it should be marketed as a expansion pack or something? So people don't feel they're missing half the game but that they're missing the extra content.

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Khanduras
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by hatu

In the future there's gonna be portals with minimal ads and premium content (closer to iTunes store or XBLA) and ad-hell portals (closer to most portals now). I'm sure both will get their audience.

You mean like Gambolio has already done? Seeing the simplicity and cleanliness of that portal always brings a smile to my face.

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Sirbob
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

Mochi been pretty good to me as a developer,

but as a publisher, mochi just doesn't offer anything.

What a retarded parot.

Archbob wana cracker?

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Sirbob
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by archbob

I also would like to know where Janitors get paid $20/hour.

I also would like you to know Janitors "work"...

you spam.

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BoogaTech
Aug 03, 2009 (4 years 258 days ago)

United States US

The annual average for a janitor is ~$25,000, about $13/hour.

I would also like to know how many "regular developers" can make games good enough that grab an $800+ sponsorship on a weekly basis.

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NitromeMat
Aug 04, 2009 (4 years 257 days ago)

United Kingdom GB

I think as our game is getting mentioned that perhaps I should throw my two cents here. I think all the developers involved in the beta understood that they were going to cause a stir when their games came out and that they were going to be putting themselves in the firing line.....but we still did it and I think you have to ask yourselves why we still did knowing this.

Back when Mochi ads were first introduced there was a similar outrage but people got used to them and now people rarely even question them being in the games they play. Coins will be similar....once there are more games out there that use them people will learn to accept them being there and people will either buy the extra content or just enjoy the free content without a causing a fuss!

As more developers back the system more and more great games will come out of it and sites will be under more pressure to take the games or else offer a site with less choice than their competitors. I think at the moment some sites are claiming on taking the moral high ground which is easy with so few games using the coins but I'll be interested to see if they keep the same stance if they inevitably get offered a cut of the earnings and there are more games.

In our experience so far we have had very few rejections on hosting Twin Shot 2 and it seems to be getting a very good number of plays so I don't think coins have had much of a negative impact on distribution!

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Incrue
Aug 04, 2009 (4 years 257 days ago) edited 4 years 257 days ago

In our experience so far we have had very few rejections on hosting Twin Shot 2 and it seems to be getting a very good number of plays so I don't think coins have had much of a negative impact on distribution!

Yeah but you are nitrome. If someone refuses a nitrome game, he must have some sort of brain desease

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Javier Lázaro
Aug 04, 2009 (4 years 257 days ago)

Spain ES

Originally posted by Incrue

In our experience so far we have had very few rejections on hosting Twin Shot 2 and it seems to be getting a very good number of plays so I don't think coins have had much of a negative impact on distribution!

Yeah but you are nitrome. If someone refuses a nitrome game, he must have some sort of brain desease

The point is to make very good games that can´t be refused, in order to succeed. Obviously, people will pay for content if the game is good enough.

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How to distribute Mochi Coins games?

styxtwo
Aug 04, 2009 (4 years 257 days ago)

Netherlands NL

Originally posted by Javier Lázaro

Originally posted by Incrue

In our experience so far we have had very few rejections on hosting Twin Shot 2 and it seems to be getting a very good number of plays so I don't think coins have had much of a negative impact on distribution!

Yeah but you are nitrome. If someone refuses a nitrome game, he must have some sort of brain desease

The point is to make very good games that can´t be refused, in order to succeed. Obviously, people will pay for content if the game is good enough.

he does have a point, nitrome has already build a name for itself with excelent games, most of which aren't spread over the internet. when one does spread people are so happy they don't care about the mochicoins because the fact that it is a Nitrome game takes the foreground.

i'd like to see the results of a decent game, from an independent developer.

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