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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

TaykronGames
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago)

Hi!,

I want to know if Mochiads have plans to launch a Multi-Player API for games in the next year.

Also, what is your best API for multiplayer games in Flash?

For me i see the Nonoba MultiPlayer API and i think will be the best option now, ¿What you think?

Regards.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

TobiHeidi
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago) edited 4 years 113 days ago

Germany DE

Most any MultiPlayer API is shit because it comes with annoying Lobbys etc. Also you dont "own" the users this way. If you want a quick start try smartfox server which is quite good. But after all creating a custom multiplayer server remains priceless.

P.S: If someone has a good single-player game and wants to get in multiplayer we might collaborate. I have an extensive multiplayer framework and written multiple mulitplayer games (example: http://www.mugalon.com/MultiplayerPokerFree.aspx )

Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

fex
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago)

United States US

+1 for SmartFox!

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

TaykronGames
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago) edited 4 years 113 days ago

TobiHeidi, thanks for the reply, and your link not work, remove the last ")" .

And whats your opinion about Nonoba MultiPlayer API?

I not need much control, I basically need a Free MultiPlayer API to connect various users, for example 2 with a "relative" basic installation,etc... with no maintenance. For this i like the option of Nonoba.

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zworp
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago)

Sweden SE

I would also recommend building your own server, it's not really that much work if you use a framework such as Apache MINA.

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Beno
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago) edited 4 years 113 days ago

Costa Rica CR

If you're doing real-time multiplayer I'd look at Stratus - http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/

Anything else is going to suck balls whether you write it yourself or not because of current/previous flash limitations. If you do write it yourself you would do yourself a favour looking at languages like Erlang which is actually designed to address the problem of craploads of people connecting to a service.

http://www.devmaster.net/articles/mmo-scalable-server/

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

TobiHeidi
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 113 days ago) edited 4 years 113 days ago

Germany DE

Nonoba API has a horrible lobby. example: you can not go back to lobby on any page other then nonoba, in 50% when you try to join a game is doesnt work, cause someone else already join but the lobby didnt show. As said you dont own the users, and if nonoba goes down your game goes down forever (worse then the gamejacket bankrupt). Programming with nonoba seems pretty easy tough...

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wm
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by TobiHeidi Programming with nonoba seems pretty easy tough...

Setting up a C# environment and writing C# code is beyond most people because there isn't a specific tutorial for every line of code.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

miniBoss
Dec 29, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Australia AU

maybe check out Pulse as well http://www.gamantra.com/pulse/ >> looks kinda promising , cheap and simple. I haven't used it myself yet. Smartfox is good and easy to pick up but I think it's expensive. Electro-Server is pretty sweet as well but I found the documentation and examples etc not as good as smartfox but Electro seems to have more features.

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TobiHeidi
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Germany DE

Originally posted by wm

Originally posted by TobiHeidi Programming with nonoba seems pretty easy tough...

Setting up a C# environment and writing C# code is beyond most people because there isn't a specific tutorial for every line of code.

What do you have to setup? Download a VS C# Express Edition and you are ready to go. Its as easy as Flash CS3

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

wm
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago) edited 4 years 112 days ago

United States US

You are severely overestimating the abilities of many potential users. It's game over for a large percentage as soon as they are expected to learn a new language and write working code without a tutorial showing them directly how to do it all, especially when the programming environment is a more imposing one.

Also, many games makers aren't programmers at all. It's probably unreasonable to expect them to do stuff beyond simple scripting just as it is to expect us to draw a figure with a decent walk-cycle.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

nobstudio
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Singapore SG

No, I do not want the web to be flooded with lame multiplayer flash games.

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wonderoid
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Turkey TR

Originally posted by blu3b No, I do not want the web to be flooded with lame multiplayer flash games.

It is flooded with lame single player games already. What is the difference?

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scheisse
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago) edited 4 years 112 days ago

Originally posted by wonderoid

Originally posted by blu3b No, I do not want the web to be flooded with lame multiplayer flash games.

It is flooded with lame single player games already. What is the difference?

I agree with this statement, even a simple multiplayer game can be a ton of fun. If there were a proper multiplayer API (as2 especially) it could be a ton of fun for the players, and potentially more money for developers and mochi.

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Space
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Denmark DK

Originally posted by blu3b No, I do not want the web to be flooded with lame multiplayer flash games.

Then the internet is not for you.

Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

zworp
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Sweden SE

In my opinion setting up the dev environment building the basic server etc is not the problem with multiplayer games, the problem is finding all the tricky bugs that only show up on the live server. >_<

Making sure all possible exceptions are handled, people disconnecting at just the wrong time, abnormal latency, clients that fail to respond, etc etc.. there's just sooo many things that can go wrong with mp games.

I'm currently building a multiplayer game with a self built server, and I decided to release a public alpha to find bugs, it's been extremely helpful. And the crazy thing is that the alpha test has a rating of 4.17 at kongregate. xD

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wonderoid
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Turkey TR

How about Come2Play's API, anyone have experience with it? It is somewhat interesting since it doesn't have any server-side logic. I wonder if it would be possible to make complex games with it.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

TobiHeidi
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Germany DE

the game is nice zworp. What language do you use server side?

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

zworp
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Sweden SE

Originally posted by TobiHeidi the game is nice zworp. What language do you use server side?

Server is in java using Apache MINA running on a debian server.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

bob
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by scheisse I agree with this statement, even a simple multiplayer game can be a ton of fun. If there were a proper multiplayer API (as2 especially) it could be a ton of fun for the players, and potentially more money for developers and mochi.

Since almost all good games are written in AS3 now, I would disagree that AS2 is especially important for multiplayer.

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TaykronGames
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago) edited 4 years 112 days ago

Originally posted by bob

Originally posted by scheisse I agree with this statement, even a simple multiplayer game can be a ton of fun. If there were a proper multiplayer API (as2 especially) it could be a ton of fun for the players, and potentially more money for developers and mochi.

Since almost all good games are written in AS3 now, I would disagree that AS2 is especially important for multiplayer.

Yes, but Mochiads have plans to announce a multiplayer API next year or is a secret at the moment and a big news for 2010 and you can't say nothing? XD

I think with an easy API for multiplayer like other by mochiads can be useful for developers and we can see in the future much games with this system.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

bob
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

United States US

Originally posted by TaykronGames

Yes, but Mochiads have plans to announce a multiplayer API next year or is a secret at the moment and a big news for 2010 and you can't say nothing? XD

I think with an easy API for multiplayer like other by mochiads can be useful for developers and we can see in the future much games with this system.

If we had something to announce, we'd announce it.

Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

nutter666
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago) edited 4 years 112 days ago

United Kingdom GB

how could they make an easy API... im no expert in multiplayer (read that as knows nothing) but i'd imagine that with the amount of data and things you could potentially have..

they can't just have a sendData function... and a lookForData function.. they would need to be loads of different stuff, i'd imagine it would still be just as complex as making your own.

EDIT - Maybe even more complex since they'd have to cater for things that you might not even need for your game but others may need.

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TaykronGames
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Originally posted by bob

Originally posted by TaykronGames

Yes, but Mochiads have plans to announce a multiplayer API next year or is a secret at the moment and a big news for 2010 and you can't say nothing? XD

I think with an easy API for multiplayer like other by mochiads can be useful for developers and we can see in the future much games with this system.

If we had something to announce, we'd announce it.

Great response :)

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

himmelweiss
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Germany DE

If a "MochiMulti API" is in the works or planed, then i would focus more on AS3, since more and more developers are moving to AS3. I use both AS2 & AS3 still for various reasons. But sooner or later i will also have to ditch AS2.

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wx3
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Originally posted by zworp

Originally posted by TobiHeidi the game is nice zworp. What language do you use server side?

Server is in java using Apache MINA running on a debian server.

I just checked it out, very fun! I used to love Scorched in DOS.

How do you like MINA? I'm experimenting with multiplayer using Netty, which is by the same developer who wrote MINA. I had initially started working with Java IO sockets, but discovered that they couldn't scale well.

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Antriel
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Slovakia SK

Originally posted by wx3 I had initially started working with Java IO sockets, but discovered that they couldn't scale well.

try java nio sockets.. selectors and stuff..

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zworp
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Sweden SE

@wx3, @Antriel

MINA (and Netty) uses java nio which scales well.

As I understand it MINA is the successor to Netty and it's recommended to use MINA over Netty now. MINA has worked really well for me, nothing to complain about.

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Antriel
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Slovakia SK

How does MINA make networking easier? I'm in middle of developing simple multiplayer game and the biggest problem is holding good structure (OOP) of the game itself.. networking part was making few classes and now just accessing send method... and reading is structured as one big switch so adding new functionality is just adding new case to that switch..
so how exactly can MINA help?

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

bob
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

United States US

If you're using blocking sockets you're doing it wrong, MINA will help you with that.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

Antriel
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Slovakia SK

non blocking java nio sockets.. multiplexing with selectors.. I'm not opening thread for every connection :) 1 is enough

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TobiHeidi
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Germany DE

best approach (under windows) is using IOCP for scalabilty http://www.codeproject.com/KB/IP/iocp.aspx. With C# you can use IOCP with asynchronus socket methodes, and get an IOCP ThreadPool. I think thats better then any type of multiplexing.

I also use a Timeout ThreadPool to excute commands and automatically shutdown server killing commands (but log them)....

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wx3
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Originally posted by zworp @wx3, @Antriel

MINA (and Netty) uses java nio which scales well.

As I understand it MINA is the successor to Netty and it's recommended to use MINA over Netty now. MINA has worked really well for me, nothing to complain about.

I'm not sure that's correct. Trustin Lee was the original developer of MINA, but decided to abandon it due to internal disputes. He decided to start a new framework, Netty 3 from scratch.

Both are considered good, stable NIO frameworks. There are several comparisons between them on the web.

http://www.ashishpaliwal.com/blog/2009/04/mina-vs-netty-a-users-perspective-part-1/ http://www.znetdevelopment.com/blogs/2009/04/07/scalable-nio-servers-part-1-performance/ http://swamp.homelinux.net/blog/index.php/2009/03/03/performance-comparison-of-apache-mina-and-jboss-netty/

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zworp
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Sweden SE

Originally posted by wx3

I'm not sure that's correct. Trustin Lee was the original developer of MINA, but decided to abandon it due to internal disputes. He decided to start a new framework, Netty 3 from scratch.

Both are considered good, stable NIO frameworks. There are several comparisons between them on the web.

[http://www.ashishpaliwal.com/blog/2009/04/mina-vs-netty-a-users-perspective-part-1/][1] [http://www.znetdevelopment.com/blogs/2009/04/07/scalable-nio-servers-part-1-performance/][2] [http://swamp.homelinux.net/blog/index.php/2009/03/03/performance-comparison-of-apache-mina-and-jboss-netty/][3]

[1]: http://www.ashishpaliwal.com/blog/2009/04/mina-vs-netty-a-users-perspective-part-1/ [2]: http://www.znetdevelopment.com/blogs/2009/04/07/scalable-nio-servers-part-1-performance/ [3]: http://swamp.homelinux.net/blog/index.php/2009/03/03/performance-comparison-of-apache-mina-and-jboss-netty/

Ah, thanks for the update, seems my intel was a bit outdated.

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Antriel
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Slovakia SK

Originally posted by TobiHeidi With C# you can use IOCP with asynchronus socket methodes, and get an IOCP ThreadPool. I think thats better then any type of multiplexing.

Selector(connection multiplexor) is better than thread pool... Even thread pool got its limitations.

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Multi-Player API by Mochiads in 2010 ?

TobiHeidi
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Germany DE

Originally posted by Antriel

Originally posted by TobiHeidi With C# you can use IOCP with asynchronus socket methodes, and get an IOCP ThreadPool. I think thats better then any type of multiplexing.

Selector(connection multiplexor) is better than thread pool... Even thread pool got its limitations.

What limitations? Do you understand IOCP? This combined with a ThreadPool is AFAIK the best option for scalabilty.

First hit on google for IOCP say:

"Basically when you use IOCP you are letting the OS manage your IO requests. For both in OS and application IO requests management is a complicated thing. If you let your application wait till the IO is complete, you loose performance. Now if you are not waiting (doing it asynchronously) you should have some sort of mechanism to know when your IO is complete. If you poll continuously, you loose efficiency, because much of the CPU cycle is wasted looking if the IO is over or not. Now if you poll slowly you loose/compromise response time. There are many ways of managing IO and one is using completion port.

So what you basically do is you create a completion port and associate handles to it (for instance SOCKET handles). Now for each asynchronous IO (usually using overlapped IO) that you do on that handle, you get notification on that port when it is over. So now your problem reduces to retrieving the notification as quickly as possible. Completion port is nothing but a FIFO queue maintained by the OS.

The IOCP model is very efficient. It is scalable and do have multiprocessor support. IOCP handles the thread pool, no. of concurrent running threads etc. The complexity is high as well (compared to the other models). In the context of writing a server, you usually use this model when you have to maintain tens and thousands of connections. It is not worth the time if you are writing a complex server code that uses IOCP model just for a few (maybe hundred) connections."

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Antriel
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago) edited 4 years 112 days ago

Slovakia SK

Nope.. I don't understand IOCP.. I skiped that word and took ThreadPool from your sentence. Sorry..
From what you have written about IOCP.. it looks pretty similar to java nio selectors.. With selectors you don't have to use many threads with blocking sockets nor many threads with non-blocking sockets and spam requests to threads. It looks like the same principe for me.
Btw: Anything that group many things together and give you only the ones you are interested in atm is multiplexor. So IOCP is multiplexor too. With IOCP it just happens at lower layer.

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TobiHeidi
Dec 30, 2009 (4 years 112 days ago)

Germany DE

Originally posted by Antriel Nope.. I don't understand IOCP.. I skiped that word and took ThreadPool from your sentence. Sorry..
From what you have written about IOCP.. it looks pretty similar to java nio selectors.. With selectors you don't have to use many threads with blocking sockets nor many threads with non-blocking sockets and spam requests to threads. It looks like the same principe for me.
Btw: Anything that group many things together and give you only the ones you are interested in atm is multiplexor. So IOCP is multiplexor too. With IOCP it just happens at lower layer.

You are right you can probably said that IOCP is some kind of OS based multiplexor. So NIO and IOCP seems to be quite similar options...

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